OBDII Engine Swap?

[john keefe]

Has anyone installed an OBDII engine (engine/trans combo) into either an XR, or Scorpio? How much rewiring did you run into? Almost plug and play as long as you have ALL the harnesses and connections. Or, are there several non PCM functions powered by, or controlled by the EEC-IV PCM which have to be intergrated into the OBDII PCM or TCM?

TIA !

John

[milehighXR]

I think someones done a 4.6L swap, but don't quote me.

I do know that the XR/Scorpio are old enough that there isn't anything(that I am aware of) that non-drivetrain related that is controlled by the EEC-IV. Those 2 cars just weren't that advanced.

What are thinking of for a donor? If you check out turboford.org, I believe someone over there has done a 2.3 Duratech swap, but they didn't use the trans it came with IIRC.

Yer in Cali aren't you? If so you may run into issues trying to use certain motors with a tranny other than what it came with.

[john keefe]

Yeah, CA is a bit overboard. Already dealt with a Smog Ref for a couple 5.0L swaps into XR's. EEC-IV is pretty easy to deal with, but I'm pondering what would work as an upgrade for the Scorpio, without losing the Scorpio's character. 5.0, been there, lot of fun. '80s - 90'2 Ford RWD V6's, not impressed by anything. Had a TBird SC, which was a really nice personal car, but they had a lot of trouble with those superchargers... Ford hated the Eaton, because they always seemed to blow before warranties.

I really like the V6 Duratec/AJ that came in the Lincoln LS, and the 5r55e auto is (AFAIK) pretty trouble free... figure it would be a smooth, nice revving motor that would be nice in the Scorpio, and the auto is supposedly miles ahead of the A4LD in durability. The V8 that was in the Jag and SHO would be nice too, but not enough room in the bay to stuff it in. CA would allow it because the Jag was RWD.

I fix my other OBDII cars, and I like the better diagnostics it offers, just not so sure it wouldn't be a big PITA to transplant one. And, more costly for repairs. Got my intergrated wiring diagrams for 5.0L conversions, but would be starting from scratch with anything later.

[milehighXR]

Cali really needs to get their act together. It's just absolutely retarded to require it to match drive axles, even when the new engine/trans combo is far better on MPG, and smog

What are the rules if you were to get spendy, and buy a crate motor, and trans for that? Is that something they'd even permit? How do the hotrodders, and kit car builders get past the moronic board?

[timxr8]

Newer Ford V6 out of the Mustang? I have no idea the shifter placement, just making a suggestion. Manual Trans and a 300+ hp V6. Seems like a good combo. If I wasn't so weight oriented, I would be doing the 3.5 Ecoboost and a T56. Unfortunately, in CA you can't do that. Even though it would be far more fuel efficient than any 5.0 you put into it.

[john keefe]

Newer Ford V6 out of the Mustang? I have no idea the shifter placement, just making a suggestion. Manual Trans and a 300+ hp V6. Seems like a good combo. If I wasn't so weight oriented, I would be doing the 3.5 Ecoboost and a T56. Unfortunately, in CA you can't do that. Even though it would be far more fuel efficient than any 5.0 you put into it.

Ah... the trade-off between newer, complexity and pricing vs. older, simpler, cheaper... Plus, gotta' keep this an automatic, though the 3.7DOHC with a 6R 6-speed auto would be nice. Then again, you've got more $$$ to find a good running combo out of a wrecker, and I have no idea how extensive the electronic integration would be with the later years, vs. maybe 2000-2006.

Yep, I can think of a few nice combinations which would work great, but just not possible in CA. Heck, even the 2.9L with a Mazda M5OD would be pretty bullet-proof, except that combo never came in a car, and I need to stick with an auto. For anything ODII, CA requires everything engine, smog & transmission related to the car and year. And, the smog refs up here in People's Republic of No. CA are notorious for, "I don't care if you've got all the correct components, it doesn't look the same as the illustrations I have for the donor vehicle." I've been lucky with my swaps, but I have friends who've run into that, to the point of having to go back, and hack out trans tunnels to make the cat arrangement look exactly like the donor vehicle illustration, with the exact same length between cats, O2 sensors, etc., etc.. Or, having to source OEM Dodge heater and coolant hoses and ignition wires, and test a 2nd time.

The first time I swapped a 5.0L into one of my XR's, the guy took 2.5hrs., then told me, "haven't seen one done that clean, but you failed because you didn't label the check engine light." I told him its only for me, I ain't gonna sell it, etc., but if he'd wait, I had a label maker in the back of the hatch. Heck, I could write it in white-out on the dash... Nope. Had to come back for a second appointment. 1 week, and another wasted 2.5hrs. to go through the whole test all over again. Stupid.

Somebody walked up to me today in a parking lot to talk about "rare Merkurs." Started telling me all about it, how it compared to BMW's and Audi at the time, and what a "great driver's car" they were written up as, and what a $$$ deal it was back then. Funny, because I had just been thinking about swapping something out of a BMW or MBnz (no too impressed with the 3.8L/4.0LSOHC's & autos prior to the 3.7's). But, both are money pits. And you definitely have to buy the correct tools since 2008, or you can't work on critical items. Anyway, the straight BMW 6's are just too long. Even a little C230 Compressor setup could be nice, but had one of those, and you find out pretty quick that "compressor" means what it does to the thickness of your wallet.

I guess the appeal of the Lincoln LS Duratec is that it worked pretty damn well in the Noble, and didn't require a whole lot of creativity to make it twin turbo. Generally, though, if I want to scare myself, I've got the 5.0L. Rather keep the Scorpio as a smooth, stealth cruiser.

[timxr8]

That's what David Godfrey used on his car, the early 3.0L Duratec. Good motors and came RWD in the LS and the Jaguars of the same years.

[john keefe]

Hey Tim, from your sig, you're doing the same Duratec swap as your project XR? Fun? How much different from the 5.0L (XR8?)? What problem areas are you looking at?

[DPDISXR4Ti]

A little late to the party, but I know some of the 4.6 swaps are running a stock OBD2 PCM. I know that Dimitri is with his 4.6 Scorpio, but he needed to get the PATS stuff programmed out. In general, the later you get, the more in-depth the electronics are integrated into the PCM, making tuning them out more of a challenge.

Overall, if you want to use a stock PCM, your best bet is going to be buying a wrecked donor vehicle so that you can pull everything you need out of it.

[john keefe]

Well, the combo of the LS Duratec and 6R auto starts in 2000... that's what, 7 years of OBDII development from EEC-IV? Plenty of time to integrate it into many other base vehicle functions.

Stupidly, gotta' ask... not enough hits on 'search:' How, in general, does the Ford PATS work, and why is it such a PITA for swapping? I mean, is it just that the PCM and other controllers read specific input profiles for the motor/trans when assembled on the production line?

[DPDISXR4Ti]

How, in general, does the Ford PATS work, and why is it such a PITA for swapping? I mean, is it just that the PCM and other controllers read specific input profiles for the motor/trans when assembled on the production line?

I've never messed with it, but PATS is related to the vehicle security system. I recall many years ago Jim DeBerry had a problem in defeating it with his first 4.6 installation. I suspect it's more commonly known how to defeat it nowadays, but that's just a guess.

[john keefe]

I admit I'm blissfully ignorant on this subject... the PATS is simply and electronic/wave coding for the keys, right? The PATS key just needs to be in range of the ECU, or is it "coded" to the ignition barrel itself? I.e., just having it in the car to be in range doesn't work.

Or, is the ignition barrel also coded to the key, and the barrels don't swap to the Merkur?

[thesameguy]

Be very cautious about OBDII swaps in California... there are some serious gotchas that can trip you up. You need to preserve ALL of the emissions stuff on the donor car, and some things like OVRP can be difficult. Cat placement is a challenge. Properly divorcing the ECM and then programming it for standalone can sometimes upset the referees. As a supervisor told me, with OBDII swaps "the engine needs to look the same in the engine bay" so changing a transverse engine to longitudinal or moving components around (think manifolds) can cause a fail. Also, remember that the engine has to be certified with the same transmission - if it was certified as a 6 speed manual it needs to remain a 6 speed manual.

Each ref has a fair amount of leeway, and anything is possible, but these are the guidelines as they were explained to me a couple months ago.

[john keefe]

... Properly divorcing the ECM and then programming it for standalone can sometimes upset the referees.

Thanks. Yep, already familiar with BAR's restrictions, and having everything exactly the same and configured/layout exactly the same as it is in the donor vehicle.

Last time I did a swap, I brought in copies of both EEC-IV factory wiring diagrams for the XR and the 1990 Mustang 5.0L donor, plus my own "revised" schematics showing the couple of ancillary circuits which I eliminated, where I spliced in the XR harnesses to the 5.0L connectors, and which wires I moved to "re-pin" the main harness to the PCM to keep certain XR circuits juiced... Just in case.

If the ref sees a tangle of wires, and what looks like an electric hack job, you're asking for trouble. A clean install, with neatly tucked in wiring looms & harnesses at least says you're detailed enough about your builds that you likely haven't cut any corners.

The BAR rep I spoke with a couple weeks ago was pretty cool. He races, knew Merkurs well, knew a couple guys I knew, and what I was thinking about doing. We talked about staying within the donor vehicle's layout, etc., and possible BMW or MBnz combo swaps, and both agreed either of the SHO motors would be nice, but can't reconfigure it into RWD because it was never offered in anything like that. Hence, the interest in the Lincoln/Jag Duratec layout. He also said a 1993-4 5.0L donor would be the best bet if I went the 5.0L route. Best combo of factory goodies, still EEC-IV, with only 2 cats required (vs. 4 with OBDII in the 4.6L '95 +). Obviously, you'd be in the same boat doing a later Duratec swap, but that's the trade-off for cleaner, more HP/TQ, and better diagnostics.

Also told me to forget about just converting the 2.9L auto to T9... still not exactly sure why, but most refs don't like to see that (even if you swap diff ratios to make it exactly like stock). IIRC, he said it was related to the PCM timing/fuel table differences between the auto and manual... maybe the tune on most automatic engines is "less polluting" than the factories manuals, so if you swap out here to a manual, you're not actually improving your smog profile??? Not saying its correct, but that's what I recall.

Go figure. You'd think a good driver with a manual can be much more flexible in using the efficient range of an engine than an automatic, so less polluting.

[thesameguy]

You can do a manual conversion on some Scorpios. You just have to show that the car was available in that year (or with that engine ID) with a manual. I've converted numerous cars to manual transmissions (including the XR4Ti). It's no problem. Manual Scorpios were sold in the US - you just have to demonstrate that fact if you're questioned. As long as you can demonstrate the engine/trans combo was originally sold, you don't need to referee the car. The ref only comes into play if you're swapping across years or models. Since all Scorpios are OBDI there is no computer test, and since smog shops are not allowed to take things apart they'd never find out if you were running the auto vs. manual ECM. It shouldn't be a big deal at all. If you just want to T9 the Scorpio go for it - there is nothing to stop you.