intercoolers--all info!!!

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MerQuest
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Post by MerQuest »

Another really good front mount intercooler is from the Mitsu Starion/Chry Conquest (not that I know anything about those cars :roll: ).

I'd really have to hunt to get some specs on it. I've got them somewhere, but I'd really have to dig for it. I can also dig out one of my spare intercooler and snap some pictures and get some dimensions.

It's kinda funny, most Honda "tuner" guys don't have a clue what a StarQuest is, but they'll beat each other down for one of our intercoolers. lol
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Post by turbofan »

yeah, i've heard good things about those coolers. i posted one for sale for a friend in the classifieds, afaik it's still for sale. i'll add that info when i get the chance.
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Post by Maurice S »

jkxr4ti wrote:Yes its mounted flat, and no scoop was used. I was going to reinstall a rubber strip on the crossmember again but i never got around to it. I modeled my install after Dimitri's setup in his first 2.3 scorpio. Pics are over on the Merkur Tech picture pages. As you can see this is by far not the best mounting location and the Supercoupe intercooler does a great job of cooling the charge air.
I've read (dont recall where exactly) that a flat mount btween the rad and crossmember is actually a good place for an I/C in a Merk after front or a cowl mount. But it didnt mention a scoop. I was wondering if there was downflow in that area (with the flap) or if it needed a scoop. I have a T/C cooler in the stock position now with no airflow but I put a fan on it and a snorkel to the original intake slot as I have a cold air cone anyway. I havnt decided whether to try a fron mount, I want to keep the A/C as well.
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Post by Ed Lijewski »

Another of several reasons why I like and run with the TCIC top-mount:

"2006 MAZDASPEED6 Exterior, Interior, Performance, Safety, Gallery ...The intercooler is top-mounted, rather than front-mounted to reduce polar inertia. ... The overall result of MAZDASPEED’s effort is greater low-end torque, ...
[www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage. action?pageParameter=modelsMain&vehicleCode=MS6 - 48k - Jan 9, 2006]


Note: although Google Search brought up the above on reducing polar inertia, I couldn't find the actual text in which it appears. But, I don't doubt that it's there, somewhere on that site. The physics involved re polar moment/inertia is unassailable. :wink:

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Post by Freejack »

Another option for those wanting to keep A/C and a mostly stock appearence is an air/water unit.

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Post by turbofan »

Ed Lijewski wrote:Another of several reasons why I like and run with the TCIC top-mount:

"2006 MAZDASPEED6 Exterior, Interior, Performance, Safety, Gallery ...The intercooler is top-mounted, rather than front-mounted to reduce polar inertia. ... The overall result of MAZDASPEED’s effort is greater low-end torque, ...
[www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage. action?pageParameter=modelsMain&vehicleCode=MS6 - 48k - Jan 9, 2006]


Note: although Google Search brought up the above on reducing polar inertia, I couldn't find the actual text in which it appears. But, I don't doubt that it's there, somewhere on that site. The physics involved re polar moment/inertia is unassailable. :wink:

YMMV 8)
the performance advantage of a front mount is well worth the SLIGHT and virtually unnoticeable (on a 3000 lb car) change in polar inertia. top mount is just a lazy way to go, it's what you do when you can't front mount. the cowl induction is probably the best way to go where front mount isn't possible. top mount directly isn't bad... but it's not great either.
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Post by MerkXRTurbo »

I have to agree with turbofan. It's always a compromise.
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Post by Ed Lijewski »

turbofan wrote:
Ed Lijewski wrote:Another of several reasons why I like and run with the TCIC top-mount:

"2006 MAZDASPEED6 Exterior, Interior, Performance, Safety, Gallery ...The intercooler is top-mounted, rather than front-mounted to reduce polar inertia. ... The overall result of MAZDASPEED’s effort is greater low-end torque, ...
[www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage. action?pageParameter=modelsMain&vehicleCode=MS6 - 48k - Jan 9, 2006]


Note: although Google Search brought up the above on reducing polar inertia, I couldn't find the actual text in which it appears. But, I don't doubt that it's there, somewhere on that site. The physics involved re polar moment/inertia is unassailable. :wink:

YMMV 8)
the performance advantage of a front mount is well worth the SLIGHT and virtually unnoticeable (on a 3000 lb car) change in polar inertia. top mount is just a lazy way to go, it's what you do when you can't front mount. the cowl induction is probably the best way to go where front mount isn't possible. top mount directly isn't bad... but it's not great either.
Lots of blather there....

Polar inertia is a factor to consider for autocrossing or racing or even spirited country lane cruising. It's unimportant for stoplight racing.

Top mount allows you to keep the a/c , uncompromised. You don't like a/c? Many of us do, a lot.

Top mount minimizes to the nth degree the necessary hose job (as well as typical regular re-adjustments required often on some installations).

Top mount is easily R&R-ed for plug/wire changes and other repairs to hoses/ turbo, HCV, etc.

Top mount provides sufficient lowering of air charge temp to prevent detonation (what intercooling is all about at essence).

Top mount with provision for additional air flow to/around it (easy to fabricate) or with fan-forced air to/around it reduces further air charge temp.

Top mount, hoses, additional plumbing for fresh air if desired and fan if desired can be had for ~$125. And for ~$75 or less get a PE or LA3 and feel the huge difference.

Did I include that installation is a, um, breeze?


Looking for the absolute best is a trap--there always are compromises with any system or technology. If one is building a real powerhouse, go for the best you can find and afford. On that kind of chassis/engine, top mount doesn't deliver the expected goods.

But, as the Mazdaspeed 6 shows, a top mount is all most of us really need. Certainly Mazada engineers think so.


Or, if you disagree, point to dyno figures showing the differences among ICs; most of that will be at the uppermost RPM range, territory that few among us inhabit or for more than brief moments.

Top mount is eminently streetable; just don't run for pinks with it. :wink:

YMMV 8)
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Post by wilky »

WTF is all this talk about Polar Inertia - is this just a fancy way of saying air doesnt like to go round corners so the straighter the air path from turbo to engine the better?

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Post by DPDISXR4Ti »

Where's the "BS Flag"? (Damn, we really DO need new emoticons :evil:)

But I digress...

Ed, if you're gonna suggest being hard-core enough to talk about the location of 10 lbs of weight and it's effect on polar moment, you're gonna have to rip out your A/C and install an AL radiator before you're even allowed into the dance! :twisted:
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Post by DPDISXR4Ti »

wilky wrote:WTF is all this talk about Polar Inertia - is this just a fancy way of saying air doesnt like to go round corners so the straighter the air path from turbo to engine the better?
As you can see from my post, I thought it was in reference to handling characteristics of the car. :? But either way, I'm with you Wilky... WTF? :)
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Post by turbofan »

wilky wrote:WTF is all this talk about Polar Inertia - is this just a fancy way of saying air doesnt like to go round corners so the straighter the air path from turbo to engine the better?

Wilky :?
it's about the ability of a car to rotate on its axis. extra weight in the nose makes it more difficult to move the nose, increasing polar inertia.

hehe replacing my AC condensor with an intercooler helped that whole mess a ton. and my tubing is extremely short.
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Post by wilky »

:lol: :lol: Oh bloody hell - I'll give a prize to anyone who can measure the difference in the polar inertia on a Merkur due to the location of the I/C. IMHO were picking fly crap out of pepper on this one - but it's a fun discussion so lets keep it going eh :P

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Post by Ed Lijewski »

wilky wrote::lol: :lol: Oh bloody hell - I'll give a prize to anyone who can measure the difference in the polar inertia on a Merkur due to the location of the I/C. IMHO were picking fly crap out of pepper on this one - but it's a fun discussion so lets keep it going eh :P

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Argue with the Mazda engineers, I don't pretend to assume they've not calculated it as they called it for the Mazdaspeed6 top mount. Mass centralization differences on motorcycles is pretty easily felt--Honda does it better than others, almost magically. Same principle in cars, while it's harder to assess/feel with your butt; but then real engineers use instruments to measure these effects, don't they.

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Post by jasonty »

i think that mazda put it up top, cause ford said so. thats it.

Ed Lijewski wrote:
wilky wrote::lol: :lol: Oh bloody hell - I'll give a prize to anyone who can measure the difference in the polar inertia on a Merkur due to the location of the I/C. IMHO were picking fly crap out of pepper on this one - but it's a fun discussion so lets keep it going eh :P

Wilky
Argue with the Mazda engineers, I don't pretend to assume they've not calculated it as they called it for the Mazdaspeed6 top mount. Mass centralization differences on motorcycles is pretty easily felt--Honda does it better than others, almost magically. Same principle in cars, while it's harder to assess/feel with your butt; but then real engineers use instruments to measure these effects, don't they.

YMMV
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