Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

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john keefe
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Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:44 pm

Apologies if this seems lengthy, or a little convoluted...

Anyone tried eliminating their ABS completely? Including the circuit for the ABS indicator light on the dash? This is a completely separate system from the EEC-IV, right? So there should be no conflict with CA BAR & Smog Testing, correct? Other than valuation of the car, or insurance in case of an accident.

I know the How to Prep a Sierra for Motorsport book gives a method for disabling the system, but I'm also considering eliminating it altogether.

Couple reasons... I'm thinking of going another route with the engine/transmission, and there just won't be enough room for that whole ABS assembly. Also, I'm an old fart & just much prefer a straight MC w/ Wilwoods, or even a boosted MC so my wife can brake w/o feeling like she's doing leg presses.

And, I've got the ABS-Brake dual flash issue: http://forum.merkurclub.com/forum/viewt ... y+clicking . Don't know how that thread was ever definitively resolved on cause/repair, but excellent posts by everyone.

I might try replacing it with a salvaged one from somebody here, but I did a little research, and cross-referencing before asking who's got "good" one for sale...

Couple major issues, regardless if its salvaged, or NOS... Cross-referencing parts, its the same Teves II accumulator used by GM, AC/Delco part # 25528382, as well as these other applications: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=186303011.

The primary issues are that: 1) these are now 25-30 year old parts, and these all came from Germany, and there ain't many more available, and none in production anywhere; 2) the diaphragm only has a serviceable/shelf life of 10 years (per ATE), so any NOS may work for a short time, but not for long before the diaphragm starts leaking the inert gas, and you're back to where you started; 3) good luck trying to find one for any of the vehicles listed in the link, above; and, 3) if you can find something produced newer than 2007 (allowing for 10 year shelf life) its gonna' be expensive.

The obvious question for a cheapskate like me is, is there a "newer" accumulator which could work, with maybe a threaded reducer which can adapt a different thread to the older Scorpio female?

Which leaves me with going back to basics, junking the whole thing altogether, and going to a simple MC & boost canister (like the XR) if there are no ramifications legally.

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:28 pm

Kinda' as I anticipated... CA BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) says that changing from ABS, or even substituting a newer ABS system (no matter how much an improvement), makes you fully liable in any accident... regardless of actual fault. That is, of course, if an investigator spots the swap. IOW, you're "degrading the manufacturer's safety components."

While I understand it from a legal standpoint, it also kinda' smacks of BAR's stated goal to get all vehicles 10years and older off CA's roads. I mean, upgrading to a newer, more modern ABS system is still considered degrading the safety feature??? That's a quote from BAR. Go figure.

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by Bob Weir » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:43 pm

Hi John,

It's obvious you've done your research [Re Teves, ATE, etc].

You indicate, you're replacing the eng & trans. If you're going to use a xr 4L or Ford v8, search those on these forums and contact those who have done it. They've been there and done that.

Personally, I'd upgrade the OEM 2.9 re John Vandandingham or for an A4LD Larry Davis. Anything else you should consider the narrow trans tunnel and driveshaft.

If you decide to keep the ABS system, continue reading, if not, disregard following.

Replacement parts:
1] It's been a few years since I replaced accumulator in mine [AC Delco on net], but I wouldn't worry about the 10 yr limit of service life. I presume that number is based on usage although rubber on a shelf wouldn't be in the best shape after 10 yrs. Obviously, mfg had to protect their asses [nitrogen vs rubber will affect the elasticity]. Once upon a time, I had a Benz and some Benz people are fanatical about longevity and OEM operations.

2] If you decide to retain the OEM system contact Jeff Herson for a set of 4 wires from sender at each wheel. Note; I cleaned the ring gear in each wheel and it did help. The electrics on Merkurs was also an issue, so a voltage load test is a good idea before buying parts when it's actually a bad wire. Note; if the brake system is NOT getting base system voltage [battery v] them you have a wiring problem. Continunity and ohm test doesn't give you enough info.

3] The ABS has 2 sensors. One is a "Pressure Sensor" mounted in top right corner with green case under the accumulator. A few people have mentioned they've removed it without the special "deep well, thin wall socket". I have both, if you're interested. Be prepared for sticker shock.

Of course, you can always pull the ABS bulb from the instrument cluster.

If you might keep the OEM system, contact me and I'll try to help.

Bob

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:33 pm

Thanks much, Bob.

Already swapped two 5.0L's, and that's what I'm considering (w/ and AOD, or AODE). Kept one, but can't upload pics, but here @ XR-Extreme: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/xr4 ... Filter=ALL# Jack Roush liked it, and signed my dash. :D https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/xr4 ... Filter=ALL#

Actually, a 5.0L is a pretty easy swap if you go with the "short water pump" setup, but time consuming if you're anal. Easy if you just drop the motor & trans by lifting the front up from the bumper with a cherry picker, or a winch/hoist off a beam. The only two issues I've had were finding a way to keep the AC and good fan setup (the 5.0L w/o stock fan & damper is very tight). And, constructing my first full wiring loom. I had three complete harnesses laid out on 8' tables (2 XR's, one 5.0L), and my factory wiring diagrams from both, then cobbled together a hybrid which works fine.

CA restrictions on what you can and cannot swap are tight. I've rebuilt this 2.9L, with WP upgraded heads, and it runs very smooth for a V6, but the only way I'd keep it for "performance" is if I can build a bulletproof A4. But I have no skills w/ automatics, and I think that even "good" A4's are sink-hole money pits which can open up at any time. I want to keep it automatic, so my wife can drive it. For less than it would cost to rebuild a solid A4, much less buy one), I can just drop the 5.0L in it, and call it good.

I considered swapping to a 5-speed (Mazda M5OD from a Ranger), but CA's weird about that, even converting it to the Scorpio T9. The BAR rep I talked with races NASA, and knew these cars, and exactly what I wanted to do. Basically, he said any Smog Ref would shut me down trying to put a 5-speed behind the original 2.9L, even the Ford T9 & EEC. Said I'd be better off putting any other motor & trans from any car and it'd be approved. I don't know exactly why, but figure they want upgrades to "newer" emissions systems if you're gonna' do a swap.

On the ABS, seems this all started when I power-bled the brakes after changing pads & rotors all around. Yeah, I know, kinda' stupid to assume its like other systems. Wish I had a manual and/or had found the several posts about how to properly do a Scorpio bleed, before I jumped into. Live & learn.

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by milehighXR » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:51 pm

john keefe wrote:Thanks much, Bob.

CA restrictions on what you can and cannot swap are tight. I've rebuilt this 2.9L, with WP upgraded heads, and it runs very smooth for a V6, but the only way I'd keep it for "performance" is if I can build a bulletproof A4. But I have no skills w/ automatics, and I think that even "good" A4's are sink-hole money pits which can open up at any time. I want to keep it automatic, so my wife can drive it. For less than it would cost to rebuild a solid A4, much less buy one), I can just drop the 5.0L in it, and call it good.

I considered swapping to a 5-speed (Mazda M5OD from a Ranger), but CA's weird about that, even converting it to the Scorpio T9. The BAR rep I talked with races NASA, and knew these cars, and exactly what I wanted to do. Basically, he said any Smog Ref would shut me down trying to put a 5-speed behind the original 2.9L, even the Ford T9 & EEC. Said I'd be better off putting any other motor & trans from any car and it'd be approved. I don't know exactly why, but figure they want upgrades to "newer" emissions systems if you're gonna' do a swap.
CA is yer first problem, them libs don't grasp too many concepts.

The only reason I can think of that they would poo-poo the Scorpio T-9, is because they may have never actually seen one, so they don't what it's supposed to look like. I do know that the service manual mentions a smog pump for the manual Scorpio, so maybe that's it. Again, its calipornia, and them snowflakes dunno schitt from shinola... It doesn't matter what it looks like under the hood as long it passes smog. Oh wait there's some dopey laws that fine you buku bucks if you tamper with the smog system :roll: Totally retarded...
Johnny


1 86 XR aka Naomi- my first love, now project car
1 14 black Fiesta SE aka Fiona- my new DD

DCLXVI

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:25 pm

milehighXR wrote:CA is yer first problem, them libs don't grasp too many concepts.
Yep. I'm a native CA boy, born in SF, spent some time all over the US and a couple other countries. First time I came back, it was culture shock. We've got the history of wild SF as the Barbary Coast, and we've grown to tolerate some oddball characters in the last 150yrs. But now its so saturated in PC BS, stupidity, and intolerance of anybody not playing good little Nazi marching in step with them, that I don't recognize it. I'll bet 99% never had to take a course in Basic Logic, Critical Thinking. We'd get the hell out of here in retirement, except all the family is out here, and there ain't many places to go. Oregon? WA? From the loony-pit frying pan into the fire. Nevada might be a choice.

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by Ed Lijewski » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:27 pm

Just swap out the ABS pump. Using a power bleeder likely pushed built up crud past some seal(s) or fine vslving tolerances of the unit. Used pumps when available don't break your wallet, and the R&R is easy.

YMMV ;)
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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:40 pm

john keefe wrote:Just swap out the ABS pump. Using a power bleeder likely pushed built up crud past some seal(s) or fine vslving tolerances of the unit. Used pumps when available don't break your wallet, and the R&R is easy.
So, your money's on the pump, rather than the accumulator? NOS ebay one would break my wallet... https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=m ... sacat=6030

I do get a single relay click when I step on the brakes, and if I pump them a bit while still on them, it'll click again. Not exactly the symptoms from the archive post linked above, but almost.

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by Bob Weir » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:21 pm

Hi John,

I read the thread you referenced
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10266&hilit=brake+relay+clicking
It appears the accumulator was the cause & solution.

A few more thoughts for you to consider...

You wrote
“I do get a single relay click when I step on the brakes, and if I pump them a bit while still on them, it'll click again”

Are you sure it’s not electrical wiring? - Especially sensor wires at each wheel.
If you replace these wires, they are wheel location specific!

Hoses
There are 2 for each side in the rear. Mine were sweating brake fluid. Not enough to drip, but definitely affecting pressure.

Have you read “Debugging the Milano/75 ABS System by Sikand, Fox & Hirsch? I can email you a pdf, if you’re interested.

Providing the wiring & hoses are ok, I’ll bet on the accumulator.

Bob

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by Ed Lijewski » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:28 pm

The clicking heard with pedal pressure is the pump relay actuating.

YMMV
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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:32 pm

Thanks Bob,

Yeah, please send me the Debugging manual! Don't have a lot of time to devote solving every issue, just the ones which might affect others driving it. You have my email on file, but do you need me to PM it to you?

Concluded the same (accumulator) from the discussion in the thread.

Already checked the sensors & rings; no damages, continuities are fine, all of the sit fully into the hub recesses. I didn't get to drive this Scorpio much before bleeding the brakes, so I don't know if the relay clicking was going on before, or is now related to damage I might have caused from the power bleeding. Or, maybe it was just the accumulator's time to go...

Thanks Ed. From the earlier thread, you made good points about replacing the relays first. So, I just now checked it KOEO, and its a strong single click behind the dash, accompanied by a whirring sound... like a motor turning over. Not the rapid clicking of a relay going bad. Haven't heard that kind of loading/whirring from any relay before. Maybe the pump/accumulator drawing large current trying to rebuild pressure?

On the other hand, considering this is all coincidental with the power bleeding, can't rule out having pushed crud into the pump either.



I REALLY like driving this car, now. It just needs more pop. And, more confidence in a transmission. Its balked a couple times now in city stop-light situations when warm; slow acceleration, but no high engine revs indicating slipping, just bogging down.

I'll have to look up the narrow tunnel issue & fitting an AOD/AODE.

I hate to say it, but this might be the one of the few exceptions where throwing parts at a wall might seem prudent. I just don't have a lot of spare time left to do thorough troubleshooting. And, essential replacement parts seem to be getting scarce. If they're a part likely to fail in the future, and swapping doesn't solve the problem(s), then at least I'll have backup parts. At least, as long as the budget allows.

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:56 pm

Ed Lijewski wrote:Just swap out the ABS pump. Using a power bleeder likely pushed built up crud past some seal(s) or fine vslving tolerances of the unit. Used pumps when available don't break your wallet, and the R&R is easy.

YMMV ;)
Just redid a proper ABS bleed with the procedures in the manual. The pump kicked out fluid at high pressure just fine when bleeding the rears, so I think it points to an accumulator. Everything else on the manual's diagnostics seemed to be OK, but we'll see.

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by john keefe » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:41 am

Accumulator was the culprit. Began to guess it was when I was going through the manual's steps to remove it, and it says (after pumping the pedal about 20 times to relieve pressure) that pedal feel will become hard... it already was rock solid since the lights started coming on. I'd never driven it before that happened, so I had no reference on what the pedal should have felt like.

After replacing the accumulator and bleeding the brakes, the pedal was much softer. Before giving in to the urge to bleed the brakes again for any missed bubbles, I decided to take it for a drive. Runs great, brakes firm and stable. Surprising that such relatively small brakes do such a good job. Guess I can hold off for a while on upgrading to Wilwoods...

Thanks Jeff (Blugg)for the part(s)

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by blugg » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:35 pm

you are welcome. Scorpio bits are far an few to source.
Jeff

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Re: Eliminating/Disabling ABS & Accumulator Issue?

Post by brokencase » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:52 pm

Is there a rebuild kit available for just the master cylinder portion of the ABS unit?

I've read elsewhere that the ABS part is difficult to rebuild. But I am worried just about the master cylinder portion.

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