A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

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milehighXR
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by milehighXR »

john keefe wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:22 pm MilehighXR (Johnny)... was looking at, and thinking about your A4LD for some time. Would love to have it, especially if I knew more about R&R any auto trans. But, its kinda' an allout solution to what might be a simple issue with mine, if that makes sense.

You're right, though. I think the shipping to CA would be prohibitive. Not sure if it wouldn't be cheaper to drive out to the old stomping grounds in CO just to pick it up. JOC, still asking $200 for it? Do you know the weight?
Yeah, $200.00, and thats a steal with what I've got in parts alone in this trans. And Bobs right, Larry Davis is the king of these trannies. I probably spent 3-4hrs on the phone with him, and traded dozens of e-mails, on the topic. Weight on the trans without oil is probably 150lbs, maybe less. Its heavy beast.
Johnny


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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by brokencase »

If I were in the situation where I felt that the bands/major mechanicals were still OK, then I would risk rebuilding the valve body myself using the Transgo Shift kit and using the the explorer forum link as a guide (along with the kit's instructions). I would also research all other upgrade parts that could be installed into the valve body while I had it out.

If my Scorpio was in excellent shape and something major was wrong with the transmission, I would seriously consider the $2400 for the rebuilt PATC A4LD that uses the 4.0L upgraded parts. I would do the removal and install of the transmission myself.
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by john keefe »

UPDATE

Finally had the time to work on this beast. Before opening up the trans, I installed a Transgo SK-Jr. kit in a clean, spare valve body, with new Sonnax oversized boost valve, and new TCC solenoid (the solenoids in both this spare valve body, and the one I took out of the car during the swap had no clicking, but showed voltage... the replacement had a loud click and feel). Drilled the separator plate, drain hole, per Transgo, etc., etc.

Removing the original valve body was an eye-opener. Fortunately, some previous owner had welded in a drain plug bung, so it wasn't as messy as it could have been. On the other hand, not sure if that indicated this had been opened up more than once, and the owner/mechanic decided it was more practical to have a drain plug. :(

Was kinda' shocked to see a gummy black film. Looked like a layer of Moly grease. Not thick, but coated the bottom of the pan. Very little metal shaving, but enough to pick up some with a magnet. When I pulled the valve body, on top of the gasket between the trans case and the valve separator plate, I found two large gunk piles below the recesses under the bands; these had a lot of metal. Nowhere else, but under those recesses (you can see the band adjuster above them). After some thought, I figured while the oil had probably been changed a couple times, this was normal 30year build-up of band shavings. There were almost NO metal pieces in the pan, which I hoped indicated there at least weren't major component failures.

The slipping in 3 and OD had been getting worse, and reverse had begun getting weaker and weaker. But, 1 & 2 are very strong, so I figured the diminished reverse (which is related to 1st) was likely seals, not reverse band. When I pulled the reverse servo, it was packed with the gunk. Looked like somebody moly'd a bearing. Cleaned it up, did the Transgo recommended revisions to the reverse servo (once I had the trans open). That consists of getting rid of the retaining clip holding the piston rod (tough little bugger to remove), and replacing the internal spring. This lets the piston rod ride up and down, eliminating the need to install different length replacement rods (per the Ford shop manual). Both seals (O-rings) looked good, no tears, no flats, so I lubed both up with Vaseline and reinstalled.

One thing that was confusing... when rebuilding the spare valve body, there was no 4-3 downshift valve. There was a shell/tube which should have housed the 4-3 valve and spring, but this was missing. The shell didn't look anything like either the Transgo illustration of either the single-solenoid version (w/ valve), or the later 2-solenoid (TCC & 3-4) version without the valve. So, naturally, I figured that since this spare valve body came out of a Scorpio, this must be something specific to the (upgraded) Scorpio A4's.

Duh... Of course, after installing everything and filling with new Merc & Lubeguard, and driving it, there is no 4-3 kickdown. Go figure. In hindsight, what I should have done was waited until I pulled the old valve body out of the car to check if it had the same odd shell, or the 4-3 valve and spring before installing the rebuilt. :oops:

Just a NOTE: I didn't completely drain the oil, and left the torque converter alone. First, with no drain access in the bell housing, nor drain hole in the TC, I didn't want to pull the trans to drain the TC. Plus, I could live with contamination from the old oil as I reckoned the trans needed some of the gunk for its tolerances anyway. As long as there wasn't a lot of metal shavings (which there weren't).

So, back to redoing the entire thing, putting it back up on jacks, pulling the rebuilt VB, swapping in the 4-3 valve, and reinstalling. Re-greased the reverse servo O-rings. At this point, I had intentionally NOT done a band adjustment. I had done a few thou ago, but wanted a better picture of whether the slipping was VB related, or bands. With all the gunk (and little metal), its likely the bands. So, since I knew the valve body was working good, for the 2nd test-drive I did perform a band adjustment (tighten to 10ft-lbs, then backed off 2 full turns).

Results? Much improved, but not cured. I REALLY like the much stronger shifting from the kit, and of course I now have 4-3 kickdown. But, there's still some slipping in 3 and OD, which can be driven around by going manual shifting. Assuming the bands are almost shot, I'm thinking of tightening the bands back 1/2 turn (down to 1.5 turns, vs. recommended 2 turns), just to get some extended life until I figure out what to do with this A4, or one of the spares sitting in the driveway. What do you think?

Reverse was a LOT better... temporarily. The O-rings had looked good, and the grease had probably sealed everything enough for the first couple of attempts, but then washed away. Since 1 and 2 are strong, this has to be the O-rings. So, I'll order both, and once again drain the pan, and repair the reverse servo. At least this time around I won't have to pull the VB. With much thanks to whoever decided to install the drain plug in the pan. :D

Another NOTE: I reused the new oil, even though it was dirty/contaminated from what was left in the TC. I put a magnetic parts holder, with two large magnets into the oil-change pan and swirled it around. Leaving the magnets in, I filtered the next pour through several layers of cheesecloth. Obviously, the oil's darkened from the TC, but its clean with no metal particles.
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by brokencase »

I am sorry your valve body approach did not pan out.

The good thing is you can always swap your kitted valve body into another case. Which I suspect is what you are planning.

Otherwise you think the shift kit is worth the effort?
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by john keefe »

Yeah, I think its worth it for a couple of reasons. With the caveat of the 3/OD issue, I like that it shifts firm but smoothly from 1-2, and probably would feel the same in 3/OD. I didn't test-drive it much, or hard, so I can't say if it drastically changed the RPM shift points.

At this point, I think the value is that I know its fixed other things that I didn't know I should have been worried about. Tough to say what NOT having a working TCC solenoid feels/acts like (the way this transmission's been acting) but I know that the replacement solenoid does work and clicks loudly. The two I pulled (on the spare used for the rebuild, and the stock one after pulling the VB off the car), neither clicked like a solenoid should.

Even if you're not doing a shift kit, a routine pulling of the pan lets you check the function of the TCC solenoid while in the car. Yeah, its a PITA and messy unless you (luckily) have a drain plug in the trans pan.

Drilling all the holes (one in the VB, the others in the separator plate) solves several known issues. Most of the holes you drill also appear in Ford's TSB's for the A4LD. I also like the idea of the dual-sealing O-rings in the Sonnax boost valve upgrade; the one I pulled from the spare was scarred, which is supposedly typical. A small investment, but you're there anyway, so why not?

Doing the shift kit on the spare got all the valves working smoothly. The spare I worked on was very clean, but had several valves which needed coaxing. I read in the shop manual that the valves and retainers should "fall easily from the bores." OK...

I only pulled a bit of the VB gasket off the one I pulled from my car to access the 4-3 kickdown valve, but I still found at least 2 stuck valves I had to pry with a small screwdriver to get to move. That gunk is stuck in valleys between valve tubes, and I suspect it might be blocking some of the flow holes/channels. If that's typical, then why not do the shift kit while you're checking all the valves, and get the upgrades at the same time?

If nothing else, you'd get the benefit of just pulling your VB and seeing what it looks like. I couldn't believe how gunked up the pan, reverse servo, and VB were. For a high-mileage A4, cleaning all that up gunk, and replacing the VB gaskets is worth a little piece of mind. Esp. since VB gasket blowouts are a known issue. I can't speak to the other side of the argument here, "leave it alone if it ain't broke." But I don't think any kind of trans-fluid change or flush is going to get rid of all of that stuff if you're also not pulling the converter.
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by john keefe »

brokencase wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:23 pm The good thing is you can always swap your kitted valve body into another case. Which I suspect is what you are planning.
Yep... Long story short, I'm the proud owner of 3 A4LD's. The one in the car, two unknowns sitting on the driveway. Put one on Craigslist for free, for several weeks, no bites. You'd think someone with a Ranger, Bronco II, Mustang, etc. would be interested.

So, what I've got is 3 mysteries. I know at least the one in my car will need at least bands and probably clutch plates, and I have no idea what the other two need. I don't want to start rebuilding the better looking of the two spares, as it might be a lot more trouble ($$$) than simply fixing the one in the car. But then, I don't know if one of those spares might be a really good transmission unless I take it all apart.

Dilemma. Never rebuilt an automatic before, and not looking forward. Though I can't afford it, I'm tempted to go for the rebuilt Mustang A4, and take my chances on swapping out the bell and tail housings, and replacing the output shaft so I can keep the Scorpio VSS. Need more research.

I'd rather just drop a 5.0L with a T5 in it, and take my chances with the Smog Ref. Or, stick a T9 behind the 2.9L and try to get it to fly past smog testing if I can show proof that Ford imported that combo.
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by milehighXR »

brokencase wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 7:47 pm If I were in the situation where I felt that the bands/major mechanicals were still OK, then I would risk rebuilding the valve body myself using the Transgo Shift kit and using the the explorer forum link as a guide (along with the kit's instructions). I would also research all other upgrade parts that could be installed into the valve body while I had it out.

If my Scorpio was in excellent shape and something major was wrong with the transmission, I would seriously consider the $2400 for the rebuilt PATC A4LD that uses the 4.0L upgraded parts. I would do the removal and install of the transmission myself.
You'd have to talk to them and see if they can source the correct tailshaft for the Merkur. The C-3 and Merkur A4LD use the same tailshaft, and while the output splines are identical to the North American RWD vehicles that use the c-3/A4LD, the location of the speedo drive gear on the shaft is different :banghead :beats head Don't know why they did that, but it is what it is.

I do have one Scorpio specific tailshaft with the bearing in the front and the mating intermediate shaft that goes with it so that one could use all of the 4.0L internals. Without it yer stuck with at best a 4 pinion planet for OD.

I really need to take photos of it, and sell it, as I have never been able to find one from a trans parts vendor. The last one I tried to buy did NOT have any speedo drive gear on it, and was supposed to be the correct part...
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by brokencase »

I've emailed PATC. They are aware of the tail shaft difference. You have to send them your Scorpio transmission for them to do the build.
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Re: A4LD... What's out of adjustment?

Post by john keefe »

brokencase wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:23 pm I am sorry your valve body approach did not pan out.

The good thing is you can always swap your kitted valve body into another case. Which I suspect is what you are planning.

Otherwise you think the shift kit is worth the effort?
Well, got VERY lucky with a spare Jeff Herson (Blugg) happened to have out here on the West Coast. Turns out if was very clean, some miles, but no metal particles in the pan, and very little carbon film from the clutches. Took it about 90% apart, and it looked really good. Somebody, probably Ford under warranty, had done a (mostly) hard part rebuild sometime in the transmission's recent past. After a new converter, bell housing bushing and alignment, new servo seals, changing out the reverse servo, R&R'ing the governor, and (per an old-time Ford service tech) set the intermediate band to 1.75 instead of 2.0 turns, etc., etc., etc., I finally got it back together, and it works great!

LUCKY, and much thanks to Jeff! :D :D :D

So, now I can objectively answer your question about how the shift kit worked... Compared to newer automatics, at first it seemed a pretty harsh, or rather "fast" in the shifting. Can definitely feel the shift in all gears; don't have to watch the tach to tell if it's happened. On the other hand, once I got used to it in the test drive, it's more a sporty feel, than smooth. Kick-down's are quick, and if you're winding it up from take-up, it will definitely hold to about 4K RPM before shifting to 2nd. I was a little paranoid about not breaking anything after so much work, so maybe I was hyper-sensitive about anything feeling less than smooth. But, after a pit-stop to check out the vitals, I drove it aggressively, and that's what the valve body upgrades seem suited for. All in all, I'm good with the positive shifting. Not "luxury car" smooth, but acceptable for a more sporty type of performer.

The one thing I now notice, probably because for so long I was shifting manually due to the 3 & 4 slipping, is that the 2.9L is a little disappointing in the mid-range. Not a lot of punch if you're just in 3 or D and accelerating from 40mph to 60mph. Not slipping, just not quick to rev. But, can't complain about it, just happy I've got a "normal" car now. It will do 80+ fine, and accelerates from 65mph on up nicely, but its no kick-in-the-pants. Not that I expect it to act like a 5.0L, but still a little sluggish for the capabilities of the chassis. A 24V Cosworth makes a lot of sense. :D
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