Dr. Jekyll... rough running 2.9

[Joe62Tampa]

PICTURES
I used to use an account on Photobucket to embed pictures into posts. But, I've deleted that account due to their policy changes. Ed, how did you embed the pictures into the post?

I only saw a means to add a hyperlink to a folder in my Dropbox account.


Joe

[Joe62Tampa]

Relating to this post about "auto to manual swap"...
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9407&hilit=t9+computer

One thing I can do -- although no rationale to do so -- is to swap computers. I have one on the T9 car (that's incomplete). The '89 has two O2 sensors and two wires (of course). I only have the '88 shop manual which has the computer pin outs on page 4-22.
Are there pin out differences?

[Ed Lijewski]

PICTURES
I used to use an account on Photobucket to embed pictures into posts. But, I've deleted that account due to their policy changes. Ed, how did you embed the pictures into the post?

I only saw a means to add a hyperlink to a folder in my Dropbox account.


Joe

http://forum.merkurclub.net/forum/viewt ... 37&t=10212

The size of photos than can be uploaded is limited, so I always use an app like Photo Resizer and reduce them to the minimum % which still allows enough detail for most purposes.

YMMV

YMMV

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Weird how when I click the link it shifts around 3 times.

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Did the CA version have something extra in this area? Like something do do with a smog pump?

[Joe62Tampa]

Andyofcolumbusmerkur... i took that photo with an iPhone. There's probably some setting I have that takes a "live" picture and makes the "photo" look like it's a mini-micro-movie-clip. If you also have one, then perhaps you're getting the same effect. IDK.

[Ed Lijewski]

So...I'm calling MAP sensor first, and remotely the FPR.

The apparent EGR symptoms could result from errant MAP signals as the ECU looks to those for when to actuate the EGR.

You have two Scorpios, and you don't want to spend on a new unit so try swapping the MAP sensor from your other one into this car.

Edit: If you have spray electrical cleaner you can unmount the MAP sensor and spritz some into the vaccuum port, shake, repeat, remount.

YMMV

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Andyofcolumbusmerkur... i took that photo with an iPhone. There's probably some setting I have that takes a "live" picture and makes the "photo" look like it's a mini-micro-movie-clip. If you also have one, then perhaps you're getting the same effect. IDK.

No it's just a link to a hosted jpeg file. Looks like the link is no good anymore. I just put the link in the posting using the link button above. Same for the picture button above. You can put the full size image on imgbb or imgur for free. Or resize it first. You can link something you see on the web, but there's no telling how long it will work.

[brokencase]

At this point, the whole EGR system is new: EGR valve, control solenoid, PFE.
Guess what?... the engine still runs poorly. (For the heck of it I did unplug the computer for a good 20 minutes.)

What's next?...
... throw another $50-something at it and replace the MAP sensor. I'd rather not go this route.

Did you pull codes again after the EGR change?

What codes is the EECIV indicating right now?

I know it is a pain clearing codes and having to do KOEO and KOER all over again - but you have to do that after making changes.

If the EECIV still comes up with EGR codes then it could mean you have a harness or connector issue. It could be a dirty pin on the EECIV connector.

I'll trust what the EECIV says about your MAP sensor long before what anyone here says about it.

You have to diagnose the problem...don't go into this "We'll just swap various parts until we might get lucky" mode.

[Joe62Tampa]

I've been out of commission for the past week or so. With that, a short update that I did a EEC swap from the '89 and no change.

I'll be back to debugging and I'll update as I make some progress (such as clearing codes, etc., and trying the list of items suggested to me).

[Ed Lijewski]

Any updates on this?

FWIW, contrary to what Brokencase opined above, I still suspect the MAP sensor is involved.

YMMV

[Joe62Tampa]

I’ve let the Scorpio sit for a long time due to a combination of having time, funds, motivation, inclination come together. Some of those elements have begun to come together. Unfortunately, “of course I’ll remember so no need to write everything down”. So much for that. Following is a culmination from Ed’s last post to what’s been done recently. Here are some random items I remember as well as more recent events.

- Bad MAP sensor: I’m certain I tried the one from the other (still not finished) Scorpio project and I don’t recall any change. I’m only now realizing the XR4 has the same sensor. I could try that; but there may be other things at play “?”

- I believe in a prior post I tested the FPR and it was fine.

- I checked the fuel pressure using the schrader valve on the fuel rail with a snapshot in time. The photo is included in this post below.

- I took a video of the fuel pressure gauge and I’ve linked it. It doesn’t look great as the pressure swings from about 32 psi up to 36-38 psi. The fuel pressure is supposed to be “43.5 psi”; but I don’t know under which circumstances and how much “loss” can be expected from the fuel pump to the rail.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqdti2gf5ylc7 ... 0.mov?dl=0

That’s prior work. Recently, I got back at it. I wondered if the fuel filter had become somewhat clogged (although I changed it after I got the car). I’m out of garage space and I did the best I could on a sloping driveway to change the filter. Ha - the connector for one end of the filter broke off with hardly any effort. Meanwhile, I managed to get one banjo bolt off and the other was stuck. In frustration, I had the car towed to a shop nearby. Fuel filter issue fixed.

I stopped by the shop as I saw the car sitting in front of the shop’s garage bay with the hood open. I stopped by and I had a chance to talk with the mechanic for a bit. Following are some notes I took down after I left.

⁃ He’d found a vacuum line disconnected for the PFE.
⁃ Unplugging FPR vacuum line and closing the hose with a finger seemed to help.
⁃ He added 5 gal fresh fuel and he added a can of BK44. The car runs better; but he doesn’t know how the car would run under load.
⁃ Runs poorly, similar to what I recorded but not as badly; but only when the engine is cold. Once it warms up after a couple minutes it idles fine, revs ok when moving the throttle under the hood. (I noticed this when I had the car running a year or so ago, i.e., it seemed to smooth out after it warmed up.)
⁃ He suggests running the car under load.
⁃ He checked the fuel pressure reading in the 33-35 psi range. All data says 35-40. The fuel pressure is marginal at best, yet FPR is fine (i.e., diaphragm intact).

Note: the car doesn't seem to be stumbling over itself as badly now as it shows in the video.

Additional thoughts (although some don’t make sense based on above items):
- If the fuel tank has enough sediment, rust — whatever, could the fuel pump “sock” be clogged?
- Is the fuel pump getting weak? (It’s a 34 year old car with less than 100,000 miles.)
- There is a hose that I believe feeds into or around fuel pump aside from the main pickup of the “sock”. It could be leaking.

The car is still at the shop as they have space for it. I figured I’d post the update here and get any feedback.

IMG_6678.jpg

fuel pressure gage

(594.7 KiB) Not downloaded yet

[Ed Lijewski]

XR uses a B(arometric)AP; Scorpio a M(anifold)AP.

A vacuum leak might affect MAP reading (in theory and maybe in practice too).

FP strainers/socks can get plugged, and the hose connecting the pump to the metal tube has been known to develop cracks on XRs.

Dropping the tank to check out its internal condition and even install a new pump seems to be worth the effort and expense if the shop does it now. It's not a complicated job but single-handedly wrestling the tank in and out while lying under a jacked up car may not be worth saving the cost of the shop doing it.

I'm not near my Scorpio S.M. now but will look at it tomorrow re spec fuel pressure, but the readings in your video definitely point to an issue there.

Rock Auto shows no pump available.

Merkur Parts Midwest has one good used one, and if I read his catalog text correctly one new one. No other pumps interchange apparently. Procuring new from Europe for the Granada/Scorpio might yet be possible.

Screenshot_20221114-165631_Chrome.jpg (236.19 KiB) Viewed 2205 times

YMMV

[Joe62Tampa]

Ed, I guess I knew that. I remember reading something -- vaguely -- that the BAP and MAP were "the same thing". The sensor is a BAP when there is no vacuum line attached or it is a MAP when a vacuum line is attached. I agree about the vacuum leak for the MAP sensor and the mechanic took that precaution.

A point of reference about the fuel pumps for leaking pumps within the fuel tank.

I'm about with you on the fuel pump. I'll ask if they have a means to put a camera of sorts into the tank to see if there's any visible sign of the sock being clogged. I guess I'll have the experience again dropping the tank as it has to be done for the project car as it'll need a higher flowing pump. I do recall a post that a Walbro-type pump was adapted into the Scorpio, or get the one MPM has as their both around the same price.
I'll find out how much the garage will charge to change the pump. It may simply be worth having them do it out of convenience. I'll have the other car to do so I can say I've split the cost difference

I'm rambling... it's getting late and I'm petering out.

Thanks for your feedback.

... I signed back in for one more item:
Can it be the fuel pump sock is just fine and it is the pump getting "old and tired" and losing its full capacity to operate like when it was new? I lack experience and knowledge in this area. IMO, if a "weakening pump" is valid then it's a straight shot to drop the tank and replace the pump.

[Ed Lijewski]

The shop should have a bore-scope to insert into the filler tube to see what can be observed. Or you can buy one online (affordable). Unless there's much rust observed the result may not be definitive.

The shop tech suggested observing performance now (after BG44K, et al) under load. Maybe ask him/her to drive it with FP pressure gauge taped to the windshield and observe readings.

Re FPs weakening, my experience says they can. Your Scorpio's mileage is relatively modest, but who knows?

On XRs, I "think" a weakening pump may also contribute to higher resistance at the fuse/relay contacts which is known to have occurred for some (causing no FP operation). I haven't heard of that occurring on Scorpios.

YMMV