The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Spring washer, its a locking type washer.
I'm always looking for originals...
I'm always looking for originals...
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
The ones that came with the APWI axle are better than original equipment. They are spring steel and they are thicker. I suspect the ones from EMPI are better as well.
I am going to put the original washers on my left axle which has accrued mileage with no issues and the new ones will go on the right axle I just replaced.
Hoping to put this issue to bed for a while. Getting tired crawling under the back side of the Scorpio.
Want to get back to Scorpio bliss....instead of Scorpio pissed.
I am going to put the original washers on my left axle which has accrued mileage with no issues and the new ones will go on the right axle I just replaced.
Hoping to put this issue to bed for a while. Getting tired crawling under the back side of the Scorpio.
Want to get back to Scorpio bliss....instead of Scorpio pissed.
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
The flanges hold the joint to the diff and the hub and keep the boot snugged to the CV joint.They re-enforce the metal flange to keep the balls inside the joint.
Somehow your ball bearings came out, but I bet your flange was not twisted/bent/loosened in any way, and the absence of thrust washers played no role in that.
The first video of my links above shows that the balls don't go in or come out of the race/cage easily.
YMMV
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
I disagree Ed.Ed Lijewski wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:06 pm
The flanges hold the joint to the diff and the hub and keep the boot snugged to the CV joint.
Somehow your ball bearings came out, but I bet your flange was not twisted/bent/loosened in any way, and the absence of thrust washers played no role in that.
The first video of my links above shows that the balls don't go in or come out of the race/cage easily.
YMMV
If you push or pull on the axle (on the bench) you will observe that the ball/cage can traverse along the outer race channels.
The flange terminates the outer race channels. Indeed there are stamped indentations in the flange that allow the balls to extend into the flange area slightly for the case of large articulation of the joint.
Once the axle is installed into the car these flanges limit the lateral movement of the axle in either direction. I think there is about 1/4" of lateral play.
Because the races are curved the application of torque leads to a residual lateral thrust force on the axle.
There is no damage to my flange that I can observe (other than wear marks where the balls rubbed against the flange). But I believe that the flange flexed sufficiently enough to allow the balls/cage to escape.
Those "branched thrust washers" are there to prevent that flexing of the stamped sheet metal flange. Otherwise they would have used just an ordinary single washer for each bolt - but they didn't
If you can provide a better explanation of how the balls/cage popped out I am all ears.
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Posting screenshots one of Noah's emails and photo attachments for addition information here.
Torque distribution washers were installed and bolts were torqued to FSM spec.
My memory is that on disassembly of one unit (I sent him two).Noah found the ball.bearings in the boot.
YMMV
Torque distribution washers were installed and bolts were torqued to FSM spec.
My memory is that on disassembly of one unit (I sent him two).Noah found the ball.bearings in the boot.
YMMV
Descartes: "Cogito Ergo Sum"
Lijewski: "Sum Ergo Drive-O. Mucho!
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
You would be correct!Ed Lijewski wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:59 am
My memory is that on disassembly of one unit (I sent him two).Noah found the ball.bearings in the boot.
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Clearly my failure was a different situation. Most likely attributed to the fact that I had not installed the thrust washers.
On the apwi axle I saw no damage to the inner race.
On the apwi axle I saw no damage to the inner race.
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
"A Variation of 1/4″ in Axle Length Can Lead to Increased Warranty Rates
"Problem: Several aftermarket CV Axles suppliers accept up to 1/4″ of length variation from OE for consolidation. While it may help to cover more applications with fewer sku’s, it also means that the axle is not the correct length which often leads to increased warranties.
"Solution: TrakMotive CV Axles are developed based of original O.E. designs; not developed from aftermarket sources. TrakMotive’s only allows only a 3mm (under 1/8″) length variance. This means our cv axles are much closer to OE specifications which has resulted reduce our warranty rates."
https://www.trakmotive.com/2018/11/15/1 ... le-issues/
YMMV
"Problem: Several aftermarket CV Axles suppliers accept up to 1/4″ of length variation from OE for consolidation. While it may help to cover more applications with fewer sku’s, it also means that the axle is not the correct length which often leads to increased warranties.
"Solution: TrakMotive CV Axles are developed based of original O.E. designs; not developed from aftermarket sources. TrakMotive’s only allows only a 3mm (under 1/8″) length variance. This means our cv axles are much closer to OE specifications which has resulted reduce our warranty rates."
https://www.trakmotive.com/2018/11/15/1 ... le-issues/
YMMV
Descartes: "Cogito Ergo Sum"
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Ed, I thought you didn't like playing with the greasy axles. Did you install them yourself of did you have someone else do it?Ed Lijewski wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:46 pm Yes, OE. Can be reused. I'm pretty sure each of the several axles I've bought included new ones; but if not I reused the existing ones.
You see these thrust washers on buses and large trucks. I think they spread torque loads between two axle bolts (and may help to keep bolts from loosening.
YMMV
If the latter, then how did you know if they installed the load spreading washers?
As I stated the trackmotive axles don't come with them so it is easy for someone to assume they are not required.
I now have Trackmotive axles installed with the load spreading washers. We'll see how it goes.
Last edited by brokencase on Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Ed, All fine and well if you could only tell us what the original lengths of the Scorpio axles are.Ed Lijewski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:01 pm "A Variation of 1/4″ in Axle Length Can Lead to Increased Warranty Rates...
I don't believe Trackmotive or any of the aftermarket axles are the wrong lengths.
The advertised axle lengths available from both Europe and US don't vary except for the driver's side and on that side the length spread is only 0.15"
left axle 476 18.74" 478mm 18.81" or 480mm 18.89"
right axle 520mm 20.47"
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Duh. Of course I R&R-ed all 6 (or is it 7...?) CV axles myself. And installed new or reused existing torque distribution washers each time (I saw no reason not to reuse those as none showed any sign of stretching or other wear) as that was logical.brokencase wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:56 pmEd, I thought you didn't like playing with the greasy axles. Did you install them yourself of did you have someone else do it?Ed Lijewski wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:46 pm Yes, OE. Can be reused. I'm pretty sure each of the several axles I've bought included new ones; but if not I reused the existing ones.
You see these thrust washers on buses and large trucks. I think they spread torque loads between two axle bolts (and may help to keep bolts from loosening.
YMMV
If the latter, then how did you know if they installed the load spreading washers?
As I stated the trackmotive axles don't come with them so it is easy for someone to assume they are not required.
I now have Trackmotive axles installed with the load spreading washers. We'll see how it goes.
My dislike of axle grease pertains to the disassembly/reassembly step. That grease, even a dab, leaves stains on clothing that will never wash clean. That was a second reason for buying new units rather than rebuilding OE ones.
YMMV
Descartes: "Cogito Ergo Sum"
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
I posted as I had just found it, not to criticize you.brokencase wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:57 pmEd, All fine and well if you could only tell us what the original lengths of the Scorpio axles are.Ed Lijewski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:01 pm "A Variation of 1/4″ in Axle Length Can Lead to Increased Warranty Rates...
I don't believe Trackmotive or any of the aftermarket axles are the wrong lengths.
The advertised axle lengths available from both Europe and US don't vary except for the driver's side and on that side the length spread is only 0.15"
left axle 476 18.74" 478mm 18.81" or 480mm 18.89"
right axle 520mm 20.47"
If you had remembered I surmised early on that my and maybe others failures could be due to use of wrong axle during assembly, inter alia (wrong assembly procedure as in ItalJohn's videos). Trakmotive's acknowledgement of wrong axle length traced to CV warranty returns was the first/only reference to its importance found to date. I wish TM had given info on types of failure(s) resulting from that...
From the onset of this issue I've considered available published axle lengths info but without having OE axle length for both Merkurs the question remains if any aftermarket units were mis-sized. Unfortunately I didn't retain any OE CV axles from my cars.
I'll try reach a live person at TM on this.
YMMV
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
Did more internet searching trying to find even one instance of VW Bus axles that grenaded in one form or another. Zilch.
So, VW Bus axles don't experience the failures that the same PN axles do on Merkurs. What explains that remains to be identified.
The boot flange missing hypothesis postulates that the stamped metal form has muscle memory so it flexes to allow a ball bearing to pass by it and returns to its original form leaving no sign behind of such flexing. Kinda preposterous.
But Dean's axle and at least one of my grenaded axles disassembled by Noah had allowed balls to exit their cages. Watching the ItalJohn videos (he has at least two on YouTube) for instance shows that the CV center race and cage must be maneuvered at ~45* angle for a ball to drop out.
That suggests our two failures at least may trace to the VX PN axles on Merkurs somehow allowing that to happen.
Possible explanations may lie in the engineered features ItalJohn points out in the CV components. I've searched for such reasons but to date haven't found anything.
I reached Andrew of Tech Support in Trakmotive this morning; he agreed to look at photos of failed CVs and this Thread which I'll send to him today. He said the best approach would be to do a warranty return of a failed CV axle to Trakmotive through Rock Auto for TM's inspection.
YMMV
YMMV
So, VW Bus axles don't experience the failures that the same PN axles do on Merkurs. What explains that remains to be identified.
The boot flange missing hypothesis postulates that the stamped metal form has muscle memory so it flexes to allow a ball bearing to pass by it and returns to its original form leaving no sign behind of such flexing. Kinda preposterous.
But Dean's axle and at least one of my grenaded axles disassembled by Noah had allowed balls to exit their cages. Watching the ItalJohn videos (he has at least two on YouTube) for instance shows that the CV center race and cage must be maneuvered at ~45* angle for a ball to drop out.
That suggests our two failures at least may trace to the VX PN axles on Merkurs somehow allowing that to happen.
Possible explanations may lie in the engineered features ItalJohn points out in the CV components. I've searched for such reasons but to date haven't found anything.
I reached Andrew of Tech Support in Trakmotive this morning; he agreed to look at photos of failed CVs and this Thread which I'll send to him today. He said the best approach would be to do a warranty return of a failed CV axle to Trakmotive through Rock Auto for TM's inspection.
YMMV
YMMV
Descartes: "Cogito Ergo Sum"
Lijewski: "Sum Ergo Drive-O. Mucho!
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
I did contact APWI regarding the failure on that axle (The cage and balls ending up in the boot)
They said they would get back to me.
But I cannot disregard the fact that I neglected to install the load leveling washers. I think they really do prevent the stamped shield from flexing and allowing the balls/race to pop out.
I still have not torn apart the Trackmotive axle to see why it was clicking on the outer CV. But even in the case of the Trackmotive axles I neglected to install the washers. They are there for a reason. They are not simply lock washers.
My driver's side Trackmotive axle has several thousand miles on it and it is doing fine.
When I put the washers back on I put the thicker than stock APWI washers on the outer CVs and the original washer I put on the inner CVs.
At this point I can't in good faith complain of a quality or design issue since I did not put the washers on. This, even despite the issues you have encountered.
So I have two spare right side axles in the attic. A Trakmotive that has one good CV and the APWI axle that has one side that I don't trust since it let go. Not sure if the splines are the same between these two different brands.
I did a few aggressive accelerations and all seems sound. I can only wait to see how things play out in the long run.
If my right axle has a failure then I will pull the good CV off of the spare Trackmotive and swap it in.
After this, and if required, I will buy EMPI axles.
It is interesting to note, that back with my first Scorpio, around 1998, it had torn boots when I bought it at around 83K miles.
I don't know where I purchased the replacement axles at that time (I think they might have been Cardone - remanufactured), but they were a bit more expensive, I think around $120 each. Those axles were doing fine even when I got rid of the car at around 115K miles.
So I have probably spent about $250 in axles. That is probably still less than what a mechanic would have charged to replace just one axle.
Anyway...Back to Scorpio bliss...with a bit of sweat on my brow.
They said they would get back to me.
But I cannot disregard the fact that I neglected to install the load leveling washers. I think they really do prevent the stamped shield from flexing and allowing the balls/race to pop out.
I still have not torn apart the Trackmotive axle to see why it was clicking on the outer CV. But even in the case of the Trackmotive axles I neglected to install the washers. They are there for a reason. They are not simply lock washers.
My driver's side Trackmotive axle has several thousand miles on it and it is doing fine.
When I put the washers back on I put the thicker than stock APWI washers on the outer CVs and the original washer I put on the inner CVs.
At this point I can't in good faith complain of a quality or design issue since I did not put the washers on. This, even despite the issues you have encountered.
So I have two spare right side axles in the attic. A Trakmotive that has one good CV and the APWI axle that has one side that I don't trust since it let go. Not sure if the splines are the same between these two different brands.
I did a few aggressive accelerations and all seems sound. I can only wait to see how things play out in the long run.
If my right axle has a failure then I will pull the good CV off of the spare Trackmotive and swap it in.
After this, and if required, I will buy EMPI axles.
It is interesting to note, that back with my first Scorpio, around 1998, it had torn boots when I bought it at around 83K miles.
I don't know where I purchased the replacement axles at that time (I think they might have been Cardone - remanufactured), but they were a bit more expensive, I think around $120 each. Those axles were doing fine even when I got rid of the car at around 115K miles.
So I have probably spent about $250 in axles. That is probably still less than what a mechanic would have charged to replace just one axle.
Anyway...Back to Scorpio bliss...with a bit of sweat on my brow.
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Re: The broken aftermarket CV-axle issue
[Sent Nov. 16, 2021]
CV Axle Failures (VW 8045, VW 8063)
Hello Trakmotive Tech Department:
Trakmotive's website cites the importance of CV axle length in preventing warranty issues.
I own four 1988/89 Merkurs, two XR4Tis and two Scorpios.
Over the last two years I've installed six new CV axles purchased from Rock Auto as that was easier than replacing torn boots or rebuilding each joint if grease was lost.
All six have failed. All six within few total miles (just a few thousands or even a few hundreds). And I drive sedately, no burnouts/racing/rallying/drifting..
Attached are photos of a couple of the axle failures on my cars; the other failures were outwardly identical but have not been disassembled.
In the Merkur car club, the failure rate of aftermarket CV axles is exceptional so my experience is not random or unique. Please see the Merkur Club of America link below.
The failed axles were new axles manufactured by Trackmotive, Cardone, and APWI.
Do you have any thoughts on why aftermarket CV axles on Merkurs using pns VW 8045 and VW 8063 have failed so dramatically? I have searched for similar CV axle failures on VW buses but have found none.
Sincerely
Ed Lijewski
CV Axle Failures (VW 8045, VW 8063)
Hello Trakmotive Tech Department:
Trakmotive's website cites the importance of CV axle length in preventing warranty issues.
I own four 1988/89 Merkurs, two XR4Tis and two Scorpios.
Over the last two years I've installed six new CV axles purchased from Rock Auto as that was easier than replacing torn boots or rebuilding each joint if grease was lost.
All six have failed. All six within few total miles (just a few thousands or even a few hundreds). And I drive sedately, no burnouts/racing/rallying/drifting..
Attached are photos of a couple of the axle failures on my cars; the other failures were outwardly identical but have not been disassembled.
In the Merkur car club, the failure rate of aftermarket CV axles is exceptional so my experience is not random or unique. Please see the Merkur Club of America link below.
The failed axles were new axles manufactured by Trackmotive, Cardone, and APWI.
Do you have any thoughts on why aftermarket CV axles on Merkurs using pns VW 8045 and VW 8063 have failed so dramatically? I have searched for similar CV axle failures on VW buses but have found none.
Sincerely
Ed Lijewski
Last edited by Ed Lijewski on Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Descartes: "Cogito Ergo Sum"
Lijewski: "Sum Ergo Drive-O. Mucho!
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