hard starting, looking for suggestions.
hard starting, looking for suggestions.
I am working on an XR now and it is being very difficult to start.
Some background on the situation:
A kid brought me the car, it did not run.
Asked me to diagnose and if I would be able to fix it.
Compression was 0 on 2 & 3, found that head gasket was bad.
When I removed the head, found that the #1 piston and #3 piston were severely disfigured, parts missing, etc.
He found a different long block and brought it to me since he thought having me do a rebuild was too expensive.
I’ve got the replacement engine back together and in the car.
After some messing around, I finally got it started.
It seems to not be getting any fuel, after troubleshooting, it came down to unplugging the VAM and it started up and ran.
It was rough, but ran.
I put a spare VAM on it and then it fired up and ran no problems.
Fast Forward about 3 weeks.
Trying to start the car when he came to check progress, no start.
Starting fluid, it would fire/bump over a little, but not enough to start.
Removed VAM plug and it finally fired up and ran rough again, when plugging the VAM in, stalled immediately, keep in mind this is the VAM previously installed to get the car running.
So basically back in the same position again.
I am wondering if there is something that can happen to the VAM, the car eating them up?
It is not being driven yet due to no brakes, but it ran the one day.
There are some aftermarket gauges and a whole lot of crazy wiring issues and weird/shotty work done.
I’ve been fixing these as I’ve been putting the car back together.
But, the car ran once I got it figured out with the initial VAM issue.
I’m wondering about the gauges, since it has an aftermarket coolant temp gauge, the sender is for the gauge only.
But this is in the original temp gauge location, sender in lower manifold by injectors is connected, at least at the intake manifold side.
I was thinking maybe it is not reading and not getting fuel to cold start.
If I spray starting fluid in behind the throttle blade it does fire and run off of that.
So it seems like a fuel issue, but after messing with it for a while it will start and run.
Are there other hard start issues that others have experienced?
Car is stored inside for now, so the temp is not too cold, maybe 50degF.
Looking for other ideas.
Thanks!
Some background on the situation:
A kid brought me the car, it did not run.
Asked me to diagnose and if I would be able to fix it.
Compression was 0 on 2 & 3, found that head gasket was bad.
When I removed the head, found that the #1 piston and #3 piston were severely disfigured, parts missing, etc.
He found a different long block and brought it to me since he thought having me do a rebuild was too expensive.
I’ve got the replacement engine back together and in the car.
After some messing around, I finally got it started.
It seems to not be getting any fuel, after troubleshooting, it came down to unplugging the VAM and it started up and ran.
It was rough, but ran.
I put a spare VAM on it and then it fired up and ran no problems.
Fast Forward about 3 weeks.
Trying to start the car when he came to check progress, no start.
Starting fluid, it would fire/bump over a little, but not enough to start.
Removed VAM plug and it finally fired up and ran rough again, when plugging the VAM in, stalled immediately, keep in mind this is the VAM previously installed to get the car running.
So basically back in the same position again.
I am wondering if there is something that can happen to the VAM, the car eating them up?
It is not being driven yet due to no brakes, but it ran the one day.
There are some aftermarket gauges and a whole lot of crazy wiring issues and weird/shotty work done.
I’ve been fixing these as I’ve been putting the car back together.
But, the car ran once I got it figured out with the initial VAM issue.
I’m wondering about the gauges, since it has an aftermarket coolant temp gauge, the sender is for the gauge only.
But this is in the original temp gauge location, sender in lower manifold by injectors is connected, at least at the intake manifold side.
I was thinking maybe it is not reading and not getting fuel to cold start.
If I spray starting fluid in behind the throttle blade it does fire and run off of that.
So it seems like a fuel issue, but after messing with it for a while it will start and run.
Are there other hard start issues that others have experienced?
Car is stored inside for now, so the temp is not too cold, maybe 50degF.
Looking for other ideas.
Thanks!
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
Hi all,
Several ideas come to mind here. The replacement block is from an XR or some other 2.3 liter Ford? Only XR have forged parts in them stock.
When it was running before, how long did you let it run? Was it firing on all cylinders or missing constantly? Did you run it long enough to cycle the cooling fans?
Faulty coil? Bad ignition module on the distributor? The VAM part is not something that has happened to me. The ignition module on the distributor likes to fail at times and coils also fail sometimes. Those are easy to check and not very much money. If it was constantly missing before take out the injectors and check to see if they are stuck and not able to move with lacquered old gas. That happened to me and was easy to fix.
Cheers
Several ideas come to mind here. The replacement block is from an XR or some other 2.3 liter Ford? Only XR have forged parts in them stock.
When it was running before, how long did you let it run? Was it firing on all cylinders or missing constantly? Did you run it long enough to cycle the cooling fans?
Faulty coil? Bad ignition module on the distributor? The VAM part is not something that has happened to me. The ignition module on the distributor likes to fail at times and coils also fail sometimes. Those are easy to check and not very much money. If it was constantly missing before take out the injectors and check to see if they are stuck and not able to move with lacquered old gas. That happened to me and was easy to fix.
Cheers
1986 XR4Ti Mineral Blue Metallic
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
Where did you hear that only the XR contains forged internals? I believe that is false as I've had TC engines before and they also have forged internals, same pistons as XR. But yes, the longblock is from another Lima turbo application.zxr250cc wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:09 pm Hi all,
Several ideas come to mind here. The replacement block is from an XR or some other 2.3 liter Ford? Only XR have forged parts in them stock.
When it was running before, how long did you let it run? Was it firing on all cylinders or missing constantly? Did you run it long enough to cycle the cooling fans?
Faulty coil? Bad ignition module on the distributor? The VAM part is not something that has happened to me. The ignition module on the distributor likes to fail at times and coils also fail sometimes. Those are easy to check and not very much money. If it was constantly missing before take out the injectors and check to see if they are stuck and not able to move with lacquered old gas. That happened to me and was easy to fix.
Cheers
When it ran before, I did let it run for a while, 30-40 minutes to let things get hot, find any coolant leaks, etc. It was running well, not missing, no rough idle. When I was troubleshooting on the first time around, I did trigger the injectors to make sure they were clicking, just tapping them with 12V very quickly. I've done this with many other injectors when I clean or rebuild them. I checked fuel pressure, it currently still has my gauge connected to the rail, fuel pressure does come up with key on, and does not immediately drop off, somewhat confirming that there are no stuck open injectors.
I may try a new TFI just to see, but it is getting spark as noted by firing on starting fluid. So this doesn't seem to be a spark issue, more of a fuel issue, just not sure of what right now.
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
Hi all,
I should have said turbo, not XR but meaning to show normal vs forged parts engines.
Do you have a spare ECM? Swap it out as you are probably aware the capacitors go bad in these over time. Auto car? 5 speed? I have an auto ECM spare.
Cheers
I should have said turbo, not XR but meaning to show normal vs forged parts engines.
Do you have a spare ECM? Swap it out as you are probably aware the capacitors go bad in these over time. Auto car? 5 speed? I have an auto ECM spare.
Cheers
1986 XR4Ti Mineral Blue Metallic
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
Yes, I also have another EEC for a manual.
But, I still don't understand what that would have to do with it?
If the EEC that is in the car works, because the car runs once it starts, why would the EEC be bad?
But, I still don't understand what that would have to do with it?
If the EEC that is in the car works, because the car runs once it starts, why would the EEC be bad?
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
Hi all,
Intermittent problems are the hardest to fix and this seems to fit that category.
If the computer is failing it might work for a bit when its circuit is cold then fail as it warms up. Just a thought. Cracked circuit boards do that also. Swapping it out is a sure check except it is in the dash so needs to be accessed.
How long did the car sit? Crud in the tank can fill a fuel filter pretty quick. I had that experience and it came on after running fine at first. That is easy to change.
Cheers
Intermittent problems are the hardest to fix and this seems to fit that category.
If the computer is failing it might work for a bit when its circuit is cold then fail as it warms up. Just a thought. Cracked circuit boards do that also. Swapping it out is a sure check except it is in the dash so needs to be accessed.
How long did the car sit? Crud in the tank can fill a fuel filter pretty quick. I had that experience and it came on after running fine at first. That is easy to change.
Cheers
1986 XR4Ti Mineral Blue Metallic
- andyofcolumbusmerkur
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Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
It's weird that you solved the issue swapping a vam, and now that vam seems bad. So I would guess it is sending you hunting in the wrong direction. Some other intermittent issue persists. ECM is looking for the temp signal from it's sender, not the sender for the gauge cluster or the sender for the fan. So check that out and make sure some person didn't cut or splice into something. Maybe a very worn and tired ignition component is to blame? I hope you are charging the going rate of $100-$200 an hour for vintage automotive repair
The best way to keep your Kia from being stolen is to not have a Kia.
- andyofcolumbusmerkur
- Level 7
- Posts: 1864
- Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:58 pm
- Location: NE Ohio
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
I am pretty confident that as long as the long block has a D Port head and is 8:1(regular combustion chamber) and not 9:1(heart shaped combustion chamber) you have a forged rotating assembly from a factory turbo car. Doesn't necessarily need to be an XR, SVO,or turbocoupe.
The best way to keep your Kia from being stolen is to not have a Kia.
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
My rate is not that much, but I understand what you're saying. It is not common to find someone willing to work on an XR, so I should be getting more.andyofcolumbusmerkur wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:39 am It's weird that you solved the issue swapping a vam, and now that vam seems bad. So I would guess it is sending you hunting in the wrong direction. Some other intermittent issue persists. ECM is looking for the temp signal from it's sender, not the sender for the gauge cluster or the sender for the fan. So check that out and make sure some person didn't cut or splice into something. Maybe a very worn and tired ignition component is to blame? I hope you are charging the going rate of $100-$200 an hour for vintage automotive repair
Anyhow, so we tried it today and it fired right off. No wire jiggling or monkeying around, turn key, started.
I'm doing this daily to see how repeatable it is, as I need it to be that way, the owner needs it that way.
I was thinking about the coolant temp sender, but it is hooked up, I'm talking the one in the lower manifold by the injectors.
He has an aftermarket gauge, so that one is different, but it just runs his gauge.
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Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
Checked for trouble codes?
YMMV
YMMV
Descartes: "Cogito Ergo Sum"
Lijewski: "Sum Ergo Drive-O. Mucho!
Lijewski: "Sum Ergo Drive-O. Mucho!
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
I was thinking that as well, my reason for not bothering is because this car has so much other random weird stuff.
So many sensors not connected, weird wiring, all sorts of other stuff.
But, those could also all be reasons for hard starting as well.
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
So, what I thought was the VAM swap that would save the world, can't say really did much.
I leave the car and try to start it when I am at shop, just hop in and it cranks, sometimes it starts, most times it doesn't.
I tried swapping to a different EEC, same behavior.
Put a ground cable from the B- to the engine block, no change.
Tried a different EEC temp sensor which goes in the lower manifold between injectors, no change.
If I put fuel into the intake manifold, I'm doing this by removing the signal line to the fuel pressure regulator, I can pour some fuel into the intake at this location. Crank and engine will start, hit the pedal and it will stay running. I can let go of the pedal and it will stay running.
Checked voltage at injectors and it is there, pulse each injector by connecting to power and they're working.
I picked up a noid light kit today and next trip plan to check this condition.
What this is leading me to believe is when cranking, there is no fuel getting injected.
Not sure what would make it work this way, but that sure seems to be the issue.
A thought I had is clear flood mode, or something weird with the TPS.
Another suggestion was to try and push start the car, if I pop the clutch and it starts, then it points to cranking and getting no fuel.
Any other ideas on what would make it crank and get no fuel? Pressure is good, car runs and drives good once it starts.
Just a pain in the butt to start.
I leave the car and try to start it when I am at shop, just hop in and it cranks, sometimes it starts, most times it doesn't.
I tried swapping to a different EEC, same behavior.
Put a ground cable from the B- to the engine block, no change.
Tried a different EEC temp sensor which goes in the lower manifold between injectors, no change.
If I put fuel into the intake manifold, I'm doing this by removing the signal line to the fuel pressure regulator, I can pour some fuel into the intake at this location. Crank and engine will start, hit the pedal and it will stay running. I can let go of the pedal and it will stay running.
Checked voltage at injectors and it is there, pulse each injector by connecting to power and they're working.
I picked up a noid light kit today and next trip plan to check this condition.
What this is leading me to believe is when cranking, there is no fuel getting injected.
Not sure what would make it work this way, but that sure seems to be the issue.
A thought I had is clear flood mode, or something weird with the TPS.
Another suggestion was to try and push start the car, if I pop the clutch and it starts, then it points to cranking and getting no fuel.
Any other ideas on what would make it crank and get no fuel? Pressure is good, car runs and drives good once it starts.
Just a pain in the butt to start.
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Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
(Just FYI, the coolant temp sensor under the lower manifold is a switch for the radiator fan. The temp sensor in the upper manifold between injectors is the ECT for the ECU.)
I wonder if the PIP module is fakakta. The PIP module is the EEC-IV crank angle sensor. It should indicate when the ECU should signal the injectors to pulse.
Do you have another XR around that you could swap distributors from? Or just install a new PIP since I'm sure your/your dad's shop has a press which you need to R&R the PIP.
YMMV
I wonder if the PIP module is fakakta. The PIP module is the EEC-IV crank angle sensor. It should indicate when the ECU should signal the injectors to pulse.
Do you have another XR around that you could swap distributors from? Or just install a new PIP since I'm sure your/your dad's shop has a press which you need to R&R the PIP.
YMMV
Descartes: "Cogito Ergo Sum"
Lijewski: "Sum Ergo Drive-O. Mucho!
Lijewski: "Sum Ergo Drive-O. Mucho!
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
The coolant sensor I am referring to in between injector 2 & 3.Ed Lijewski wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:12 pm (Just FYI, the coolant temp sensor under the lower manifold is a switch for the radiator fan. The temp sensor in the upper manifold between injectors is the ECT for the ECU.)
I wonder if the PIP module is fakakta. The PIP module is the EEC-IV crank angle sensor. It should indicate when the ECU should signal the injectors to pulse.
Do you have another XR around that you could swap distributors from? Or just install a new PIP since I'm sure your/your dad's shop has a press which you need to R&R the PIP.
YMMV
I believe fan switch is on the firewall pointed side on the lower manifold, and the temp sensor for the dash gauge is pointed toward the drivers side strut tower.
I thought that if the PIP failed, it would not run at all. This car runs great once it's started by manually providing a pump shot.
I'm sure I have another distributor laying around, not sure I want to trade this one out since it run's well once started.
The only remaining issue, so far, is getting it to start.
Re: hard starting, looking for suggestions.
So I went to check out if injectors were firing during cranking today with the noid light set I picked up yesterday.
#1 was not firing when I connected everything.
I stuck a different distributor in place to verify above, maybe the PIP was NFG or on vacation?
Now I get # 1 injector...
I went to #4 and it showed flashing on the noid light when cranking.
I figure I need to check the others, since this is a bank to bank, maybe one wire was broken? Besides, there are only 4 injectors and I had the stuff to check them. I removed the harness from all injectors and got it out over the fender. Plugged the noid light into each and jumpered the starting solenoid to see if I get any flashing, sure enough, each injector connector is firing now.
I plugged the injector harness back on each and cranked again by jumpering the starter solenoid. It cranks and starts right up, but I also now have a crazy buzzing sound coming from the drivers side of the car, I have never heard this before. Found that the green relay, supposedly AC? I need to check EVTM, but also fuel pump relay buzzing. Turn off the key and they stop, turn on key, crank and engine starts, and also buzzing again.
I grabbed another fuel pump relay, cleaned the contacts off with a wire brush and tried using this one.
Turn key, engine starts, no buzzing from fuel pump relay, but the green one is buzzing.
So, I left it after starting about 10 times today, each time I started it today, I did not have to use gas pedal or anything to get it to start.
I'll try it again tomorrow and see what happens.
Crazy and Ridiculous, but, maybe progress, definitely weird.
I have no history on this car, for all I know, it may not have run in the past 20 years.
We shall see....
#1 was not firing when I connected everything.
I stuck a different distributor in place to verify above, maybe the PIP was NFG or on vacation?
Now I get # 1 injector...
I went to #4 and it showed flashing on the noid light when cranking.
I figure I need to check the others, since this is a bank to bank, maybe one wire was broken? Besides, there are only 4 injectors and I had the stuff to check them. I removed the harness from all injectors and got it out over the fender. Plugged the noid light into each and jumpered the starting solenoid to see if I get any flashing, sure enough, each injector connector is firing now.
I plugged the injector harness back on each and cranked again by jumpering the starter solenoid. It cranks and starts right up, but I also now have a crazy buzzing sound coming from the drivers side of the car, I have never heard this before. Found that the green relay, supposedly AC? I need to check EVTM, but also fuel pump relay buzzing. Turn off the key and they stop, turn on key, crank and engine starts, and also buzzing again.
I grabbed another fuel pump relay, cleaned the contacts off with a wire brush and tried using this one.
Turn key, engine starts, no buzzing from fuel pump relay, but the green one is buzzing.
So, I left it after starting about 10 times today, each time I started it today, I did not have to use gas pedal or anything to get it to start.
I'll try it again tomorrow and see what happens.
Crazy and Ridiculous, but, maybe progress, definitely weird.
I have no history on this car, for all I know, it may not have run in the past 20 years.
We shall see....