head gasket failure advice needed

[James Wieler]

great because the AEM is cheaper

James

[GPz11]

Any electronic part can fail.

I've been happy with my Innovate MTX-L.

[In XS 7]

Any electronic part can fail.

I've been happy with my Innovate MTX-L.

True, However, some of them fail more often than others.

[Stealth_xr]

can you share part numbers for the studs and MLX gasket?

Yes I am using the 8993 gasket, 15psi of boost and Ranger TTY bolts. My original 12 point bolts had threads that were a bit "necked down" so I tossed them.
Also timing is set correctly at 12 degrees (SPOUT removed), NGK plugs (745 or something like that), new wires, cap, rotor, O2 sensor.
I don/t think my motor is that hi perf that I need studs and a fancy gasket.
Please feel free to change my mind though,
James

It sounds like everything is set right. I believe the spec is 10-13 degrees retarded with the spout removed. I usually set around 12-13.

My car is fairly similar to yours in engine mods for the most part. I don't think the 8993 is up to the job but your boost is set on the brink of modest so it really should handle it. However the added flow from the t4 front does put more pressure on that head gasket. Like i said with mine at 18 psi within a year i had the head off and noticed the gasket was well on its way to failure.

I don't know if i could change your mind.
I felt with my combination of parts it was necessary.
Its not so much about power output its more about increasing strength on an engine i beat on.
To me if you've spent the money on the turbo, spent the money on the head, etc...
why wouldn't you spend the money on the hardware/good gaskets. Hardware holds it all together.
Nice thing about studs is if you plan on keeping the car you never have to buy another set of head bolts again.
This is the first I've heard of reusing the head bolts... I NEVER reuse head bolts. A also never reuse stock rod bolts either.
I never really questioned the practice of it, it made sense to me. Just a habit i guess.
On 2.3ts the head gasket has always been subject to debate. I use MLS gaskets and studs and no longer deal with the problem of blowing head gaskets, but that's just my experience.

Its all a matter of opinion... What I'm telling you is just what worked for me.

some links... i didn't get to in depth... just summit racing.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/depa ... 4-cylinder

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-1 ... /overview/

[James Wieler]

Anybody can change my mind and I appreciate your input and the links.
If we have similar engines then I'm really interested in your experience. Do you think the cometic and MLS are better than the 1035? I'm thinking about having the block decked as well in which case I think a better gasket would work better. You gave a long list of choices there and I'm having trouble choosing.

What I want to avoid is throwing expensive parts that mask the problem and only delay the next failure.

I need to spend some time eliminating some variables, like clogged injectors, dirty threads, vacuum leaks, I'd really like to get a wide band to eliminate a lean condition (when it's running).
cheers
James

[merk23literturbo]

My DD needs to be 100% reliable and fun. I sometimes drive 300 miles from home for work. I run 18-21 lbs of boost with big VAM and PE or LA EEC. I have been through many setups and found the best setup to be: 8993 head gasket with undercut studs or stock 12 points, forget the 1035, too many problems. Timing is stock at 10, not 12 unless it's an auto. Good intercooler, autolite 764's at .028 gap. Ported polished head, big valves, Boport cam, 3 inch exhaust with CAT and minimum 91 octane. The head and block must be flat and your cooling system needs to be problem free. If you are using stock VAM you will be under 300 HP and the stock motor will last a long time if it doesn't get overheated.

[John V]

Last 16 inline 4 Limas, Volvos and YBs I built all NEEDED deck surfaced..
Just do it and blah blah about bolts.
Gawd dayum... :VWs diesels running 45 psi!'
Jeeeezuz.

[James Wieler]

Hi John,
Excellent info, please expand on the Lima block rebuilds. What level of performance were they used at, how long have they been surviving, and most importantly what did you use for the head gasket and fasteners in each of these cases.
Perhaps that's a lot of info to dig up so please feel free to paraphrase.
thanks man
James

[Stealth_xr]

I've never run a 1035. Only heard nothing but complaints about them.

Hey JV, you don't bother with head studs?

[KhanTyranitar]

I tend to agree, a MLS head gasket will be better, but unless you get the deck surface redone, its pointless, as between the uneven surface, which based on what I saw on my motors, is going to be bad, and the rough factory finish, which is gonna be bad, a MLS or any other gasket is going to struggle to seal, and what kind of fasteners you use will mean little if you are trying to get a rough uneven surface to seal.

[xrattiracer]

I have only used MLS for nearly 10 years now and will never use anything else. And this on a block/head with no special surface finish, just machined flat per normal shop procedure. Which yeah as mentioned is very important to do for the block as well as the head.
If you want simple and reliable, its hard to beat a couple sheets of plain old steel. With any composite gasket a tiny leak will quickly turn into a large hole. MLS will just continue leaking for a very long time before burning through, if it ever does.
I also use studs, but more for convenience than anything else. it is so much easier to drop the head back onto the engine with studs vs bolts.

[James Wieler]

hi xrattiracer,
Can you spend a few moments listing your engine mods? I'd like to get a sense of who's using what kind of gasket/fasteners with what kind of motor mods.
thanks
James

[John V]

I've never run a 1035. Only heard nothing but complaints about them.

Hey JV, you don't bother with head studs?

Not on any 2.3s I've done but they're just gonna be rally motors and not be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay wicked bad ass things so stock head bolts wire brushed, bolt holes clean wit tap, ARP like lube on threads and under bolt head and torque..

On all but one YB I have used studs.ARP on most, Ling studs on one.

Deck and head finish is velly important , and flatness is a must.... How many time do we warp the head before the coin drops that maybe deck haint so straight anymore?

[James Wieler]

Update:

I dropped the head off today at R&L engines in Dover NH. Quite a place, mostly race engines. I talked to Leo the owner and he provided a ton of info. Here is what he said in point form (I might be paraphrasing in places).

1) Most of the heat of combustion goes into the head, so the head is the most likely piece to warp or have an uneven surface.

2) He suggested using a straight edge and feeler gauges to check the block surface for imperfections. No more than 0.002-0.003" of variation is allowed. In general if there is any damage (or corrosion) to the block surface you will see or feel it.

3) The 1035 gasket is just as compliant as the 8993 but is made of superior materials and should last longer. Once the head is surfaced he recommended using it over the 8993.

4) Head studs from ARP are preferred over the TTY bolts.

5) He looked at the old head gasket and said it's failure looked like it was due to old age and worn out. "head gaskets and rings are items that wear out". Funny as I have never thought of the head gasket as an item that wears out.

So last night I cleaned the bejesus out of the block surface with a couple different wire wheels and a 1/4" pneumatic grinder. I plugged the oil and coolant passages with paper towels, and chased the head bolt threads with an M12x1.75 bottoming tap. Then checked the block for flatness. The smallest feeler gauge I have is a 0.004" and it did not fit under the straight edge at any location no matter how I oriented the ruler, so I think I'm within the 0.002-0.003" limit.
The head gasket failed in between cylinders 3 and 4 but I see no evidence of any block damage, corrosion or unevenness in this area.

So he will check the head for cracks and get back to me, but I think I have a plan moving forward.
1035 and studs here I come.
thanks
James

[John V]

Just a note.. Heat oddly enough goes in all directions...How a guy can figure it goes mostly into the head is odd--and I ain't interested in even pondering that one.

TTY bots yeah don't reuse..Any other you can use until it takes a set--ie it doesn't spring back.. If you had measured a bolt and noted it you'd know when it has stretched and stayed..then you replace.. Knowing 99.9% never measure bolts, OEMs cover their ass by saying change every time..
Big honking old 12x1.75, you won't be stretching those torquing by hand.
Coprrect lube--like ARP lube on clean threads and a dam under the head and you can use old straight sided bolts a long time..
Failing having ARP lube, a litte CV grease and a spoonful of gear oil will do fine as substitute.. Use the same on rod bolts, and mains..