Replacement for PBR phenolic pistons
Re: PBR phenolic pistons
FWIW, my PBR fronts seem to seize every year after sitting for the winter. I pretty much budget a reman set of calipers every year. They are total pieces of $#!%.
Re: PBR phenolic pistons
Ive heard sooooo this many times. Why Ive held back on this upgradehEaT wrote:FWIW, my PBR fronts seem to seize every year after sitting for the winter. I pretty much budget a reman set of calipers every year. They are total pieces of $#!*.
Re: PBR phenolic pistons
It sucks because like an idiot I just bought nice, new SVTF front rotors and nice HPS pads. I wonder if there's a nice aftermarket Mustang caliper that'll work with Mike brackets and lines.xrdoc wrote:Ive heard sooooo this many times. Why Ive held back on this upgradehEaT wrote:FWIW, my PBR fronts seem to seize every year after sitting for the winter. I pretty much budget a reman set of calipers every year. They are total pieces of $#!*.
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
Why are you buying all-new calipers?? The pistons seize because the phenolic material expands - the piston bores are fine. It's like $18 in parts (four pistons, two kits) to rebuild calipers and it could not be easier.hEaT wrote:FWIW, my PBR fronts seem to seize every year after sitting for the winter. I pretty much budget a reman set of calipers every year. They are total pieces of $#!*.
1. Get a small clamp/spreader, and undo the banjo bolt on the brake line. Use the clamp on the banjo to keep the fluid in.
2. Loosen the two bolts on the sliders - it's a 13mm hex and a 16mm open end wrench to hold the slider
3. Remove the two bolts on the sliders, pull out the caliper
4. Put a block of wood in the caliper where the brake pads would go, and use compressed air in the hydraulic port to blow out the pistons.
Sometimes they are so seized compressed air won't work. You can use a set of adjustable pliers to grab the pistons and work them out. These are all four of my pistons. The first pic is of the driver's side, which was functionally less bad. Visually, I can't tell the difference!
5. Clean up the piston bores - you'll surely find crappy old fluid trapped in there. It's worth noting that these brakes were fully flushed not 500 miles ago. The sludge that's in there survived a pressurized flush. No wonder the pistons ultimately fail.
If the bores are corroded 600 (or finer) grit sandpaper cleans them up nicely and leaves a nice finish behind. It's no problem to polish the bores as the only thing that does any work in a caliper is the seal. So, stay away from the grooves where the seals lives.
6. Use brake cleaner to ensure no particles get left behind, then install the seals. Dry and lubricate the bores with brake fluid to ease installing the pistons.
7. Lube up a piston.
8. Install a dust boot on the piston, and work the dust boot into its groove. Once you have it seated, tug gently on the piston to ensure you have a good seat.
9. Use a caliper spreader and something along the face of the piston to slowly & gently drive the piston home. Keep it straight, you don't want to wreck the seal.
10. Repeat on the other side, then done!
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
Did I already chime in on this?
I've been using PBR calipers since 2002. Installed at least 20 pairs.
Only had one stick, and it was a used one. Looked like typical brake maintenance, 10 year old brown fluid.
I think I have dealt with 10x that many failed xr calipers.
Change the fluid, gravity bleed, every spring as it comes out of storage. Cost is about $10 and an hour of your time.
I've been using PBR calipers since 2002. Installed at least 20 pairs.
Only had one stick, and it was a used one. Looked like typical brake maintenance, 10 year old brown fluid.
I think I have dealt with 10x that many failed xr calipers.
Change the fluid, gravity bleed, every spring as it comes out of storage. Cost is about $10 and an hour of your time.
It's not a hobby, it's an obsession!
Re: PBR phenolic pistons
Nice, Great info.
Miguel.
89 XR4Ti Monique; Waking up a real "Night/Mare-Coor".
T5, NPR IC, PIMP ECU, Walbro 255, Dual piston BOV, Manual BC, 3" exhaust, One piece Aluminum drive-shaft, mc2 LSD, Boport 1.5 cam, Ported and polish head, big valves, 80# injectors, Bob's log, (soon HY35).
89 XR4Ti Monique; Waking up a real "Night/Mare-Coor".
T5, NPR IC, PIMP ECU, Walbro 255, Dual piston BOV, Manual BC, 3" exhaust, One piece Aluminum drive-shaft, mc2 LSD, Boport 1.5 cam, Ported and polish head, big valves, 80# injectors, Bob's log, (soon HY35).
Re: PBR phenolic pistons
thesameguy wrote:Why are you buying all-new calipers?? The pistons seize because the phenolic material expands - the piston bores are fine. It's like $18 in parts (four pistons, two kits) to rebuild calipers and it could not be easier.hEaT wrote:FWIW, my PBR fronts seem to seize every year after sitting for the winter. I pretty much budget a reman set of calipers every year. They are total pieces of $#!*.
1. Get a small clamp/spreader, and undo the banjo bolt on the brake line. Use the clamp on the banjo to keep the fluid in.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... brake1.jpg
2. Loosen the two bolts on the sliders - it's a 13mm hex and a 16mm open end wrench to hold the slider
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... brake2.jpg
3. Remove the two bolts on the sliders, pull out the caliper
4. Put a block of wood in the caliper where the brake pads would go, and use compressed air in the hydraulic port to blow out the pistons.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... brake4.jpg
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... brake3.jpg
Sometimes they are so seized compressed air won't work. You can use a set of adjustable pliers to grab the pistons and work them out. These are all four of my pistons. The first pic is of the driver's side, which was functionally less bad. Visually, I can't tell the difference!
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... brake5.jpg
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... brake6.jpg
5. Clean up the piston bores - you'll surely find crappy old fluid trapped in there. It's worth noting that these brakes were fully flushed not 500 miles ago. The sludge that's in there survived a pressurized flush. No wonder the pistons ultimately fail.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... brake7.jpg
If the bores are corroded 600 (or finer) grit sandpaper cleans them up nicely and leaves a nice finish behind. It's no problem to polish the bores as the only thing that does any work in a caliper is the seal. So, stay away from the grooves where the seals lives.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... rake10.jpg
6. Use brake cleaner to ensure no particles get left behind, then install the seals. Dry and lubricate the bores with brake fluid to ease installing the pistons.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... rake11.jpg
7. Lube up a piston.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... rake12.jpg
8. Install a dust boot on the piston, and work the dust boot into its groove. Once you have it seated, tug gently on the piston to ensure you have a good seat.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... rake13.jpg
9. Use a caliper spreader and something along the face of the piston to slowly & gently drive the piston home. Keep it straight, you don't want to wreck the seal.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... rake14.jpg
10. Repeat on the other side, then done!
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mu ... rake15.jpg
Fantastic info and thank you!! Would you mind if I ping Brad and have him add this to the FAQ? It seems this affects a lot of us here and is an easy fix. Do you have a link to the rebuild kits you use?
Looking at your pics, it gave me dejavu as well. I have mine painted the same way, same rotors, Koni yellows, same hoses, same caliper tool, ha!
Should be easy enough, thank you again. I did a similar rebuild on the brake master for this car.
Re: PBR phenolic pistons
If you cross the Centric part number on Rock Auto (14545006) it shows:DPDISXR4Ti wrote:Might go junkyarding on New Year's Eve (doesn't everyone do that?), and so will try to go hunting for 45mm pistons to test fit. I think this is the application range I'm looking for...DPDISXR4Ti wrote:Audi 90/100's are found often enough in junkyards that I might have to blow a couple pistons out one day and do a test fitment into a PBR.Dangie wrote:apparently the Audi 90, Audi 100, Land Rover, and a few others use this exact size piston.
AUDI 200 (1989 - 1991)
AUDI 5000 (1986 - 1988)
AUDI 90 (1990 - 1995)
AUDI CABRIOLET (1994 - 1998)
AUDI COUPE (1990 - 1991)
AUDI S4 (1992 - 1994)
AUDI S6 (1995 - 1997)
AUDI V8 (1990 - 1994)
But doing a little digging, it appears that Audi used both a 2-piston and a single piston caliper on the above listed cars of this era. Despite the fact that we want to use it on a dual-piston caliper (the PBR), it's the single piston caliper that has the 45mm piston. Part# 146.45002 or sometimes just listed as 14645002
Don't take the above as fact just yet. Doing some reading just now on Audi calipers, there's all sorts of stuff used including something call "UFO brakes". I also read something that indicates the 2-piston caliper uses staggered pistons of 40 and 45mm.
Let's try to update this thread with data as it's discovered.
BUICK RAINIER (2004 - 2005)
CADILLAC CTS (2003 - 2007)
CADILLAC ESCALADE (2002 - 2006)
CADILLAC STS (2005 - 2011)
CHEVROLET AVALANCHE 1500 (2002 - 2006)
CHEVROLET SILVERADO 1500 (2001 - 2005)
CHEVROLET SSR (2003 - 2005)
CHEVROLET SUBURBAN 1500 (2000 - 2006)
CHEVROLET TAHOE (2000 - 2006)
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER (2002 - 2005)
FORD FIVE HUNDRED (2005 - 2007)
FORD FREESTYLE (2005 - 2007)
FORD MUSTANG (1999 - 2004)
GMC ENVOY (2002 - 2005)
GMC SIERRA 1500 (2001 - 2006)
GMC YUKON (2000 - 2006)
GMC YUKON XL 1500 (2000 - 2006)
ISUZU ASCENDER (2003 - 2008)
MERCURY MONTEGO (2005 - 2007)
OLDSMOBILE BRAVADA (2002 - 2004)
SAAB 9-7X 2005
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
I would never go to the trouble (even if it is "easy") to rebuild a PBR caliper with plastic pistons. But maybe that's just me.thesameguy wrote:The pistons seize because the phenolic material expands - the piston bores are fine. It's like $18 in parts (four pistons, two kits) to rebuild calipers and it could not be easier.
I went junkyarding yesterday - only one Audi in the range of models/year I mentioned previously - a '95 Audi 90. It had the dual-piston Girling calipers so I kept walking. Perhaps if the caliper had been un-bolted I would have tried to pop the pistons out to see if they actually are staggered 40/45mm pistons (and thus the caliper we're actually looking for); but I wasn't feeling that adventurous.
On a marginally related note, later in the day (15 minutes before closing time), I came across a ML-430 with all four Brembo calipers still attached. Too little time to remove them - I'm sure they won't last long.
Brad
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
What would you rebuild them with?DPDISXR4Ti wrote:I would never go to the trouble (even if it is "easy") to rebuild a PBR caliper with plastic pistons. But maybe that's just me.
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
Well, that broadens the scope of the search, but since I see the Mustang is included, I wonder if some (all?) of these also have plastic pistons?hEaT wrote: If you cross the Centric part number on Rock Auto (14545006) it shows:
BUICK RAINIER (2004 - 2005)
CADILLAC CTS (2003 - 2007)
CADILLAC ESCALADE (2002 - 2006)
CADILLAC STS (2005 - 2011)
CHEVROLET AVALANCHE 1500 (2002 - 2006)
CHEVROLET SILVERADO 1500 (2001 - 2005)
CHEVROLET SSR (2003 - 2005)
CHEVROLET SUBURBAN 1500 (2000 - 2006)
CHEVROLET TAHOE (2000 - 2006)
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER (2002 - 2005)
FORD FIVE HUNDRED (2005 - 2007)
FORD FREESTYLE (2005 - 2007)
FORD MUSTANG (1999 - 2004)
GMC ENVOY (2002 - 2005)
GMC SIERRA 1500 (2001 - 2006)
GMC YUKON (2000 - 2006)
GMC YUKON XL 1500 (2000 - 2006)
ISUZU ASCENDER (2003 - 2008)
MERCURY MONTEGO (2005 - 2007)
OLDSMOBILE BRAVADA (2002 - 2004)
SAAB 9-7X 2005
Brad
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
Not at all - I think that's posted on a Mustang forum as well - I posted all that for a friend who had seized calipers on his '01 GT.hEaT wrote:Fantastic info and thank you!! Would you mind if I ping Brad and have him add this to the FAQ? It seems this affects a lot of us here and is an easy fix. Do you have a link to the rebuild kits you use?
CENTRIC 14545006 is the piston, sold individually so you need four
CENTRIC 14361024 is the rebuild kit, sold per caliper
It really is. In this particular case I had a spare set of calipers on a shelf so I swapped them on and rebuilt the seized ones off the car, but it's just not a big deal. Takes maybe 20 minutes per caliper and then a bleed. I use a Motive pressure bleeder and doing the whole car only takes about 45 minutes - one wheel off, bleed, wheel back on, rotate. Too lazy or whatever to put the whole car up on jackstands and do it at once. And, really, if you clamp off the brake hose, keep it elevated, and prevent the MC from running dry, you only need to bleed the ones you remove. Air is not going to get into the system through an elevated brake hose.Should be easy enough, thank you again. I did a similar rebuild on the brake master for this car.
FWIW, I have had these calipers on the car since 2003 or 2004 and this is the first time they have seized. Obviously they do seize, but it really shouldn't be an annual affair. I've driven about 30,000 miles in 13 years, so my car sits a lot. Even still the calipers lasted a decade.
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
That's precisely what we're trying to figure out!thesameguy wrote:What would you rebuild them with?DPDISXR4Ti wrote:I would never go to the trouble (even if it is "easy") to rebuild a PBR caliper with plastic pistons. But maybe that's just me.
Brad
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Re: PBR phenolic pistons
Okay.... but then what do you do with a seized caliper? Not drive with brakes? Throw it away?DPDISXR4Ti wrote:That's precisely what we're trying to figure out!
That Centric part number is a plastic piston. It is what I pictured above, specifically.DPDISXR4Ti wrote:Well, that broadens the scope of the search, but since I see the Mustang is included, I wonder if some (all?) of these also have plastic pistons?