Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
This is more along the lines of this hasn't been done before and probably for good reason.
I am not a fan of MacPherson strut suspension. Especially in a 30 year old car.
Instead of grafting a mustang II front cross member in (saw the photo, what a fail)...
What about fabbing a bolt in sub frame. Utilizing the lower control arm mount, locating arm mount, and strut tower mount.
basic hiem joints (weld in bungs) for the A-arms, top and bottom. DOM 0.120 tubing for arms.
This opens up using a more common knuckle/hub. That could utilize lets say mustang brakes, calipers ect. And a better pattern, 5x4.5".
Everything new bolts/welds to subframe.
"Why, why would you do that"
Reasoning:
Face it, the XR is old. If you want good (better suspension) you take koni struts, cut them up, add ground control coil over conversions. As time goes on basic parts are becoming impossible to find.
Lets say this bolt in conversion fails. Great, bolt in factory parts, give in.
If it dose work. This opens up a new world. That can be duplicated using more modern parts.
Suspension geometry can be copied off different setups ect, and would add mucho adjustability.
Lets here your thoughts....
I am not a fan of MacPherson strut suspension. Especially in a 30 year old car.
Instead of grafting a mustang II front cross member in (saw the photo, what a fail)...
What about fabbing a bolt in sub frame. Utilizing the lower control arm mount, locating arm mount, and strut tower mount.
basic hiem joints (weld in bungs) for the A-arms, top and bottom. DOM 0.120 tubing for arms.
This opens up using a more common knuckle/hub. That could utilize lets say mustang brakes, calipers ect. And a better pattern, 5x4.5".
Everything new bolts/welds to subframe.
"Why, why would you do that"
Reasoning:
Face it, the XR is old. If you want good (better suspension) you take koni struts, cut them up, add ground control coil over conversions. As time goes on basic parts are becoming impossible to find.
Lets say this bolt in conversion fails. Great, bolt in factory parts, give in.
If it dose work. This opens up a new world. That can be duplicated using more modern parts.
Suspension geometry can be copied off different setups ect, and would add mucho adjustability.
Lets here your thoughts....
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
What significant gain will be achieved and at what cost? That's the reason why. McPherson strut systems have been used on some very fast, high performance vehicles with great success. The replacement parts are still very prevalent, especially from our very specialized vendors. If you find a car with a suspension design you like, why not get that car?
Don't confuse the above with me telling you not to do it. I'm just giving you the primary reason people don't go crazy with changing the suspension. Hell, I'm doing, IIHO, pretty heavy modifications to mine with coilovers, adjustable TCAs in front, and reinforcing and slotting the rear subframe to make that adjustable. It just doesn't make fiscal sense when most change out their suspension every 10 or so years and whatever you gain from changing to a "more modern" (even though McPherson strut is "more modern" than a double wishbone) will be negligable to 99% of people.
My .02 cents.
Don't confuse the above with me telling you not to do it. I'm just giving you the primary reason people don't go crazy with changing the suspension. Hell, I'm doing, IIHO, pretty heavy modifications to mine with coilovers, adjustable TCAs in front, and reinforcing and slotting the rear subframe to make that adjustable. It just doesn't make fiscal sense when most change out their suspension every 10 or so years and whatever you gain from changing to a "more modern" (even though McPherson strut is "more modern" than a double wishbone) will be negligable to 99% of people.
My .02 cents.
Tim Spencer
1988 XR4Ti Duratec project car
2011 Taurus SHO daily driver...not stock.
1988 XR4Ti Duratec project car
2011 Taurus SHO daily driver...not stock.
- John Brennan
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Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
Short of building, essentially, a tube-frame car, the only semi-serious mod I can see making would be the compression-strut, front-mounted, blade-type ARB setup replacing the sway bar as a suspension link and isolating that function..
This is my car, and these are my people!
2015 Fiesta ST
2020 Edge 2.0 Ecoboost
2015 Fiesta ST
2020 Edge 2.0 Ecoboost
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
Do it..
Tell us what your ET to work improvement is.
Or the cornering Gs you gain.
Or just what you gain..I came to Xratties from a great car with very strong bodyshell and excellent unequal length double A arm, solid firwall mounted rack with 2,2 turns lock to lock, larger diameter discs in front than stock Xratty and under 1950 lbs stock..
And i could drive ab Xratty down a twisting beat mountain logging road faster..
Its not BAD
And that's pretty good..
I always say "wear out the possibilities of whatchoo have first...before scrapping whole systems..
You want to work on cars? Discuss theoretical abstract idealized plans? Or drive the damn car?
And there are far better solutions than Koni.. which will not dry up.
Tell us what your ET to work improvement is.
Or the cornering Gs you gain.
Or just what you gain..I came to Xratties from a great car with very strong bodyshell and excellent unequal length double A arm, solid firwall mounted rack with 2,2 turns lock to lock, larger diameter discs in front than stock Xratty and under 1950 lbs stock..
And i could drive ab Xratty down a twisting beat mountain logging road faster..
Its not BAD
And that's pretty good..
I always say "wear out the possibilities of whatchoo have first...before scrapping whole systems..
You want to work on cars? Discuss theoretical abstract idealized plans? Or drive the damn car?
And there are far better solutions than Koni.. which will not dry up.
John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle WA USA
CALL =-> (206) 431-9696 <-= CALL
http://www.rallyrace.net/jvab/
Sleezattle WA USA
CALL =-> (206) 431-9696 <-= CALL
http://www.rallyrace.net/jvab/
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
timxr8 wrote:What significant gain will be achieved and at what cost? That's the reason why. McPherson strut systems have been used on some very fast, high performance vehicles with great success. The replacement parts are still very prevalent, especially from our very specialized vendors. If you find a car with a suspension design you like, why not get that car?
Don't confuse the above with me telling you not to do it.
My .02 cents.
The advantage would be adjustability. Also the unique factor. And yes McPherson struts are used in many high end cars from BMW to Porche. But those are cars built for performance. Basically dumbed down track cars, with years of R&D. Look how many years it took for Porche to finally nail down the rear engine sports car.
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
John Brennan wrote:Short of building, essentially, a tube-frame car, the only semi-serious mod I can see making would be the compression-strut, front-mounted, blade-type ARB setup replacing the sway bar as a suspension link and isolating that function..
Currently in the design phase, the sway bar will most likely mount infront of the suspension. In reality the whole move is complex, but not impossible.
Right now my biggest hurdle is finding a coil over that would fit. Givin the limited space.
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
As far a ETC it's anyone's game really.John V wrote:Do it..
Tell us what your ET to work improvement is.
Or the cornering Gs you gain.
Or just what you gain..I came to Xratties from a great car with very strong bodyshell and excellent unequal length double A arm, solid firwall mounted rack with 2,2 turns lock to lock, larger diameter discs in front than stock Xratty and under 1950 lbs stock..
And i could drive ab Xratty down a twisting beat mountain logging road faster..
Its not BAD
And that's pretty good..
I always say "wear out the possibilities of whatchoo have first...before scrapping whole systems..
You want to work on cars? Discuss theoretical abstract idealized plans? Or drive the damn car?
And there are far better solutions than Koni.. which will not dry up.
I already purchased hub assemblies and what will be the spindle. Hiem joints will be on order after the first, then it's just a race of welding and test fitting.
In reality excuding coil overs I'll be into the front suspension roughly $300 in materials.
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
A few basic mods made the cars good enough for BTCC... = Good enough for me.
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
Correct, and the years of R&D are passed to the consumer with a car that costs nearly $100k now a days. Porsche has been chasing their tail keeping a rear engine car as their flagship. Put the same R&D time and engines in a Cayman, and you would have a much, much better car (money wouldn't matter, as it would be much cheaper). But I digress from my banter on how Porsche is a joke of a car company. What it seems you are trying to do, is develop a suspension that performs like one found on a 6 figure car. The question is, will you notice the difference and is it worth the time/effort. Getting the suspension geometry correct: how unequal do you want the control arms (which will change your dynamic camber), how much caster change do you want with travel, what spring rates and valving will be optimal, etc? You are going to end up taking steps backward in performance as you develop this until you finally find something that works. Will it work better than the performance stuff that Ford used on the Tarmac rally cars? It might.FordManMT wrote:timxr8 wrote:What significant gain will be achieved and at what cost? That's the reason why. McPherson strut systems have been used on some very fast, high performance vehicles with great success. The replacement parts are still very prevalent, especially from our very specialized vendors. If you find a car with a suspension design you like, why not get that car?
Don't confuse the above with me telling you not to do it.
My .02 cents.
The advantage would be adjustability. Also the unique factor. And yes McPherson struts are used in many high end cars from BMW to Porsche. But those are cars built for performance. Basically dumbed down track cars, with years of R&D. Look how many years it took for Porsche to finally nail down the rear engine sports car.
In terms of adjustability, using adjustable TCAs from England and some strut tubes in the front, then slotting the rear beam or buying adjustable STAs will solve that.
Here's the chassis from the Roush XR4Ti if you are looking for ideas
Tim Spencer
1988 XR4Ti Duratec project car
2011 Taurus SHO daily driver...not stock.
1988 XR4Ti Duratec project car
2011 Taurus SHO daily driver...not stock.
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
.
Im sure there will be trail and error. Luckily with using hiem joints fine tuning should be easy. Theres mountains of information online including in depth suspension calculators. The limiting factor will be what I can get away with for max length on the upper control arms.Correct, and the years of R&D are passed to the consumer with a car that costs nearly $100k now a days. Porsche has been chasing their tail keeping a rear engine car as their flagship. Put the same R&D time and engines in a Cayman, and you would have a much, much better car (money wouldn't matter, as it would be much cheaper). But I digress from my banter on how Porsche is a joke of a car company. What it seems you are trying to do, is develop a suspension that performs like one found on a 6 figure car. The question is, will you notice the difference and is it worth the time/effort. Getting the suspension geometry correct: how unequal do you want the control arms (which will change your dynamic camber), how much caster change do you want with travel, what spring rates and valving will be optimal, etc? You are going to end up taking steps backward in performance as you develop this until you finally find something that works. Will it work better than the performance stuff that Ford used on the Tarmac rally cars? It might.
In terms of adjustability, using adjustable TCAs from England and some strut tubes in the front, then slotting the rear beam or buying adjustable STAs will solve that.
Here's the chassis from the Roush XR4Ti if you are looking for ideas
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
At the same time I plan on widening the wheel base 2-4" in the front. Will have to build up some wide flairs for it, most likely rivet them on. Not everyone likes that look but I do. That should give me enough room for my modifications.
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Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
so you have already spent all the money you can on things that you don't have to guess at?FordManMT wrote: As far a ETC it's anyone's game really.
i have a certain amount of expendable income too, but i do like to know that my investment is going to have a return.
86 Silver XR4Ti. 'squirted. 12.7@111
03 VW Golf tdi
05 Yamaha FZ6
03 VW Golf tdi
05 Yamaha FZ6
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
xrattiracer wrote:so you have already spent all the money you can on things that you don't have to guess at?FordManMT wrote: As far a ETC it's anyone's game really.
i have a certain amount of expendable income too, but i do like to know that my investment is going to have a return.
This is actually being funded off the selling off of old projects.
Soon as my 1/2" hiem joints and DOM come in I can start fabbing my subframe and arms.
And because I already have them I might use front Nissan 300xz struts. They are compact which will help in keeping everything tidy.
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
no offense but 300zx coilovers are probably more rare then merkur ones.
Do you have sketch or anything of your idea?
Do you have sketch or anything of your idea?
Roll cages= viagra for car
Re: Heavy Suspension Modifications. Lets talk...
michaelb wrote:no offense but 300zx coilovers are probably more rare then merkur ones.
Do you have sketch or anything of your idea?
I'm headed to work but I can take a picture tonight. The 300zx probably has 15+ different coil over options.
Out of this IRS the only parts that will probably be used are the knuckles, hubs (machines to 5x4.5), brakes, CVs, and differential.