Planning somthing different...

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

I have decided to use RED TEK for my AC system and wonder if anyone in here has tried that? I am planning to do that when I am on vacation. I will use the stock system with the exception of changing the orifice tube to an adjustable one with all other parts as original. It should be interesting to try it. I have three cans of R-12 but do not plan on using it. Anyone done this mod?

Cheers

[thesameguy]

This is the same hydrocarbon based stuff that has been sold for years under various names. They get sued or the EPA comes after them and they shut down, and a few years later the product is back under a new name. It was Envirosafe, now it's Red Tek. I'd bet money on it.

[jkxr4ti]

Watch out, here come the flammable refrigerant police....
I have not used it but curious to hear your opinion once your finished. I was looking at some alternatives but hadn’t made a choice yet. Bought the Mercedes expansion valve that some others have used and planned on getting universal type condenser and dryer.
There was another good post on here I collected a bunch of info from
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=29316

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

Thanks for the follow up. I have read about the various gases and the reason I am interested in the one chosen is the pressures inside the system are similar to R12 and the overall efficiency of the system should be comparable. The full kit with an added 4 oz can of oil, if needed, was reasonable and the result, if good will cause me to convert my SVT Focus to this stuff as well, I think.

Any gas used in a system like this if it leaks will be flammable under the right conditions because it will have an oil mist component to it. Any. I am intrigued by the idea that you don't need to use a vacuum pump to pump out the system and it is a non corrosive gas unlike R134a. If this works well this is a good at home way to update the cars and the kits are easily found unlike R12 for many folks. We shall see. I am going to use a Four Seasons VOV # 38902 orifice tube and it is rated for up 105 degrees outside temps which will work where I am but an alternate one is rated for over 105 degrees outside for folks in AZ, I guess.

Cheers

[john keefe]

I don't know much about the product, but I do know this about R134... Dupont was losing the patent rights on R12, and this was supposed to be "much better for the environment and ozone." It's not. And controls for evac operations are more stringent.

A really good friend attended an SAE seminar on R134 and procedures for installing, changing seals, etc., etc.. So, the bragging points from the speaker were that the molecule was much smaller than R12, and more efficient giving better cooling effect (i.e., more molecules per surface area in the piping to cool air). But, you'd need to change seals at least ever third service, and recharge much more often (once per year to top up, at least), which would not make your customers happy.

BUT, on the other hand, you could count on making a LOT more money annually from 3-4 times the number of AC services you'd do.

To which somebody observed/asked, "Why so many recharges vs. R12?" The answer was that the much smaller molecules leak past any seal compositions we can make. Which begged the next question, "But, doesn't that mean you're evac'ing far more R134 into the atmosphere in a year than we see with R12 over 5,6, 8 or 10 years?" No answer. The point is that it's a poor alternative compared to R12, it dumps far more molecules into the atmosphere over any time span, they really don't know what it will do long term to the environment, but it is a ready-made revenue source for a LOT more annual AC recharges.

R134 is also the one and only Fed-mandated solution (pushed by Dupont), so any improvement/competitor would not be tolerated. Again, I don't know anything about this product, but I suspect that's why Red Tek is being chased around and changing names... but I am curious if it really is a legitimate, better alternative to R134, how often it needs to be recharged, how much of your AC system you have to change (e.g., Mercedes valve), etc.

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

I must say first that I have thought of doing this because it seems to be a benign gas if leaked and all other aspects say it can be used directly in place of R12 or R134a for a car. It does not attack the environment like R12 or R134a.

I have chosen the Four Seasons VOV part because it is designed to optimize an AC system for low or high rpm by making a change in the way it works. It has two compromise settings, in effect, instead of one compromise setting for operation at different rpm from the motor. As far as I am able to read, RED TEK could be used with no changes to the system. The VOV is one that is designed to improve AC in the cars for any gas in use, not just R134a. I thought of using the more aggressive one for over 105 degrees but I don't usually have any heat above 95 or so and the one chosen should be fine. As this gas does not care about a vacuum and it will not be corrosive if a slight amount of moisture is in the system I plan to change all the Schrader valves when doing this prior to charging the system. I am looking forward to the results and hoping for a good outcome. If it fails I can always pump out the system and use the R12 I have. We shall see...

Cheers

[jkxr4ti]

The other hydrocarbon refrigerants are still around under different names. The red tek appears to use isobutane / r600 or propane / r290 from the SDS sheet vs the fake freeze12 which uses Tetrafluoroethane really r134 or the envirofreeze which only states liquified petroleum and has no trade name designation.
The fact that these now have a trade designation makes it much more likely an AC shop would touch it after you did the initial work. As long as the hoses are maintained in good condition and not routed over the flaming hot turbo like stock this appears to be a good option.

[thesameguy]

There's no argument R134a was a scam - Dupont had (has) a stranglehold on regulators and they shoved R134a down our collective throats.

Still, HC refrigerants have been around forever. Red Tek since the '90s. By and large, we're not making new hydrocarbons... No HC-based refrigerant is legal for MVAC - the only legal refrigerants for motor vehicles are R12, R134a, R-152a, R-1234yf and R-744.

We all know R134a isn't quite as flame resistant as it's supposed to be and we all drive around with tanks of gasoline, but at the same time HC refrigerants fall under Class 3 of the ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 34–2013 and R134a under Class 2 - the difference being "highly flammable" and "somewhat flammable." Take that for what you will.

No shop will service a car with an HC-based refrigerant. It's illegal, period. Because it's illegal, nobody who services MVAC would have the equipment to service such a system. In 2015, the EPA started allowing HC refrigerants into stationary systems, so maybe you could get your central air guy to service your car.

The EPA has fined or shut down every manufacturer who tries to sell HC-based refrigerants into MVAC because it's not legal to do so.

I'm not saying don't do it, I'm not even saying I wouldn't do it. I'm just saying this is a *very* well traveled road, so if you want to read more about the pros and cons the information is widely available.

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

Several folks have mentioned a Mercedes part. Are you meaning Expansion Valve? I don't see orifice tubes listed for Mercedes, only the EV. The Merk has both, which I am guessing you all know. The EV for the Merk is readily available so why choose a Mercedes one? Better results?

Cheers

[john keefe]

Thanks for the clarifications, Sameguy. So, who's producing the HC stuff, if its illegal, or is it just decades worth of stuff in warehouses? The temptation is if you're doing your own AC evacs & recharges on your older cars, so you don't need a shop. New cars still going to dealers for servicing... I'd stick with R134 as I'd believe all the components would be "upgraded" or re-engineered to work specifically with it?

[thesameguy]

There are applications for HC refrigerants, just not motor vehicle AC. The problems typically come about when someone starts selling a product into an application or as a replacement for some other product that the EPA hasn't approved. There's a whole process for each.

This Red Tek stuff:

Does RED TEK 12a™ need EPA approval?

RED TEK 12a™ is a second-generation, non-ozone depleting replacement for R-134a and all other non-ozone depleting R-12 substitutes. The EPA’s Final Rule, issued April 1, 1994, states: “In this final rule, the Agency has determined that second-generation replacements if they are non-ozone depleting and are replacing non-ozone depleting first-generation alternatives, are exempt from reporting requirements under Section 612”.

This is a dodge. Just because a refrigerant isn't subject to reporting requirements it does not mean it's approved for a purpose.

There is a specific process for getting EPA approval, and that's submission to the EPA under Section 612's SNAP rule. To the best of my knowledge, no hydrocarbon based refrigerant has ever been submitted for approval in MVAC. Worth a quick look:

https://www.epa.gov/snap/unacceptable-s ... frigerants

I'm too lazy to do the reading, but I'm sure Red Tek is similar enough to HC Blend A or B that it's explicitly illegal to use in MVAC.

At the very least, any given refrigerant must have a unique fitting to prevent cross-contamination, and there is no unique fitting for Red Tek. Thus, there is no way to legally install or reclaim it. So you can buy it, but you just can't do anything with it.

It took YEARS before the EPA fined Envirosafe over R22a.... it could be years before they catch up with Red Tek. But I bet they will.

(I do have EPA 609 certification - I try to keep it up!)

[thesameguy]

FWIW, the big issue with DIY AC service is the reclamation requirement. To get started you need a very expensive piece of equipment... Or you can ask a shop to do that part. Once the existing charge has been reclaimed, the rest is very DIY friendly... Replace any components (hard parts or soft parts), vacuum the system, charge the system. You need that 609 cert to buy R12, but at least for now you don't need one for R134a (that will change!). The tools needed to do the work are less than $200 to get by but *ideally* you want a $150 scale too. I get by without the scale, charging by pressure. It's fine. I do 2-3 AC systems a year... I buy a lot of $#!%^& cars so most of them have non-functioning AC, but every so often I get one that still has a charge. I pay a guy $20 to reclaim it (he gets to keep the gas) and then I rebuild/recharge at home. I've gotten about 14 years and 30-40 cars of use out of my $200 set of tools. But the knobs on my gauges broke last year so I'll probably cave and get new ones at some point.

Overall, I have found it to be economical. Around here it cost about $300 to have a pro charge a system. I usually buy $300 worth of parts (new compressor, TXV, dryer, o-rings) and $40 worth of R134a instead. That way I am guaranteed a first time no-leak system and long-term results. Sometimes I need to replace a hose, but I have the shop replace the rubber and reuse the ends... it saves a few bucks sometimes. I've not yet needed to replace a condenser or evaporator but it'll come up someday. No matter what, I'd rather spend money to have a like new system than pay someone $300 to tell me I need to buy $350 worth of parts anyway!

[thesameguy]

Sorry to bomb this thread, but someone on here a few years ago custom made an entire new AC system for his XR and it turned out great. I've never had a real performance issue with R134a retrofits. If the parts are available and the repair work accessible, I don't think there's any reason to look at weirdo refrigerants. To me, they're like oil treatments and such. If there's no other choice or you just need a few more miles, maybe try a magic chemical. But if you're looking at the long term, do it right.

Edit: Here is that thread:

http://forums.merkurclub.net/forum/view ... hp?t=29316

It's inspirational.

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Goss on Goss's garage talks about how cars come into the shop with the wrong stuff in them fairly often. Even though they have different style fittings/connectors people still manage to get it in there. And how something like propane can contaminate equipment and then contaminate the next vehicle that comes into the shop. They use a very expensive machine to check and then weigh the amount of product before that goes back inside the system.

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Ya the retro-fit r134a sounds like the way to go. As long as it doesn't leak out too quickly.