Replacing aging C3 with A4LD?

DrFunkenstein · Post by **DrFunkenstein** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:06 pm

The C3 in my XR4Ti is not engaging when cold; once the engine has been idling for a 5 minutes, it will reluctantly engage, but will slip out when the engine idles down. Once you've driven 4-5 miles, it will stay engaged just fine. Of course, the trans shop (national name) wants $900 to rebuild it, but I just paid them $500 to reseal it only 6 months ago.

Anyway, I have access to an A4LD pulled off a 2.3 out of a '93 Mustang. Is it pretty much a straight swap to put the A4LD in, or am I looking at the same amount of work required as would be to go with a T5. Obviously a T5 is preferred, but I'm trying to do this on the cheap and just keep the car on the road until we can "plan" for a T5 swap.

Post by **DPDISXR4Ti** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:55 pm

I don't know all the details, but there's more to it than just swapping one box for the other. For starters, the A4LD is longer than the C3 I believe. The mounting is different also, although you could swap your C3 tail onto the A4LD to address this (the A4LD is basically a C3 with an O/D).

A good source of knowledge on this would be Johnny Hinkle in Colorado. I don't think he's on here though. Dave Planakis has done one as has Larry Davis, so now you've got three names to chase around.

BTW, welcome....

Chuck W · Post by **Chuck W** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:13 pm

I bet you can just as easily find a working C3 on the cheap and not get involved in another swap.

That would be the cheapest way to keep the car on the road.

dimswits · Post by **dimswits** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:29 pm

DPDISXR4Ti wrote:I don't know all the details, but there's more to it than just swapping one box for the other. For starters, the A4LD is longer than the C3 I believe. The mounting is different also, although you could swap your C3 tail onto the A4LD to address this (the A4LD is basically a C3 with an O/D).

Not so fast. Using the merkur tailshaft with a USA A4LD requires swapping output shafts, which requires disassembling down to the last one-way clutch in the case. Far, far easier to just adapt the mounting, as it is exactly the same as a T5. Your next issue will then be buying/building a much shorter driveshaft. The A4LD is longer than even the T9.

Also you another big problem. The A4LD is actually built according to application, meaning that the clutch packs have more plate sets in them the heavier the application (2.3T with 5 sets per, 4.0 with 6 sets per, and 2.3NA with 4 sets per if I remember right). You also can not simply add platesets to a weaker transmission because the drums and shells are machined to place the snap rings according to the expected thickness of the pack. So you'll be putting the weakest of a weak-ass tranny into a car that needs one of the strongest of a weak-ass tranny.

As chuck said, the cheap and easy option is another C3, from an XR.

Post by **DPDISXR4Ti** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:32 pm

DPDISXR4Ti wrote:I don't know all the details, but there's more to it than just swapping one box for the other.

Maybe I should have just stopped there....

Post by **Ed Lijewski** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:17 pm

Anyone else read and keep the complimentary magazine titled Fords-something-or-other included in the Carlisle entry registry bag which had a fantastic photo&text on how to rebuild the C3 and make an upgrade or two as well (shift kit)? I did and have it at home, but can't recall the anme of mag to search for it online. It's step by step, and--seriously--if you're a careful wrencher to start with, you'll feel pretty confident you can rebuild a C3 at a low total parts cost.

YMMV

Post by **DPDISXR4Ti** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:26 pm

Ed Lijewski wrote:Anyone else read and keep the complimentary magazine titled Fords-something-or-other included in the Carlisle entry registry bag which had a fantastic photo&text on how to rebuild the C3 and make an upgrade or two as well (shift kit)? I did and have it at home, but can't recall the anme of mag to search for it online. It's step by step, and--seriously--if you're a careful wrencher to start with, you'll feel pretty confident you can rebuild a C3 at a low total parts cost.

I don't recall the article, but are you sure it wasn't a C4 they were taking about?

Post by **Ed Lijewski** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:36 pm

DPDISXR4Ti wrote:
Ed Lijewski wrote:Anyone else read and keep the complimentary magazine titled Fords-something-or-other included in the Carlisle entry registry bag which had a fantastic photo&text on how to rebuild the C3 and make an upgrade or two as well (shift kit)? I did and have it at home, but can't recall the anme of mag to search for it online. It's step by step, and--seriously--if you're a careful wrencher to start with, you'll feel pretty confident you can rebuild a C3 at a low total parts cost.
I don't recall the article, but are you sure it wasn't a C4 they were taking about?

Trust me, Brad (yeah; it'd be something new, I know....

); it's a C3. that's why I kept it. Actually, I kept it, it got buried under newer magazines, and just during the holidays did I unearth it--and was completely engrossed in reading it.

YMMV

thesameguy · Post by **thesameguy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:36 pm

As long as we're talking about this, what are the relative merits of a C3 vs a C4 vs an A4LD?

I keep seeing ads for race built C4s for a grand. It's kinda tempting...

milehighXR · Post by **milehighXR** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:26 pm

The C-4 is for drag racing. The A4LD(A4 from now on), is a Light Duty trans(hence the LD). There was once(I'm beginning to believe he is a myth) a man named Doug Hamby, who allegedly built an A4 that could handle 350+hp, using 4R44E internals. He even worked with Ford to develop a "black box" to allow for manual control of an electronic valve body. I have never been able to track him down. I thnik he is a myth, not a man. But there is a guy in Golden CO, on the serious explorations forum(he has not returned any PMs) that has built a BADASS A4/5R55E hybrid. Becuase, you guessed it Ford improved the internals again beyond even the 4R series. I think this guy in Golden said he got 7 clutches into the intermediate, and OD packs, and 6 in the low/reverse pack. Don't quote me though it has been awhile since I looked at it. I've often thought that if I built one for myself, that I MIGHT be able to build others for about $1500. These would be upgraded trannies, with a lot of work. Of course if you really wanted to go nuts you could just put an AOD into the car, but that is a whole 'nother swap.

XR Tuner · Post by **XR Tuner** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:03 am

Will a C3 from a Cougar/T-Bird work as well?

DrFunkenstein · Post by **DrFunkenstein** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:03 am

Ed Lijewski wrote:Trust me, Brad (yeah; it'd be something new, I know.... ); it's a C3. that's why I kept it. Actually, I kept it, it got buried under newer magazines, and just during the holidays did I unearth it--and was completely engrossed in reading it.

YMMV

Would it be possible to scan the article into a pdf and post it or email it? I'm not completely inept with wrenches (I did manage to pull the head off thing thing to get the valves worked on, just don't ask how long it took...

), and was even considering a self-rebuild of the C3 if the A4LD didn't work out (which it doesn't look like it will).

Post by **merkurdriver** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:28 am

XR Tuner wrote:Will a C3 from a Cougar/T-Bird work as well?

If its a 2.3T Cougar/T-bird you're off to a good start, you'll need to swap over the XRs C3 tailhousing for sure so it will bolt up correctly...possibly the rear shaft as well, but the front and the middle of the trannys should be the same.

As for the A4ld stuff, probably easiest to use a Mustang driveshaft (from one with an A4 of course...) with the swap and the Mustang DS to Diff adapter everyone uses when they do T5 swaps.

I know the Rutherfords have a A4 in Sarah's XR thats 4.0 "Explorer" specs, but I'm not sure what they did about the electronic controls for the A4

Post by **DPDISXR4Ti** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:45 pm

milehighXR wrote:The C-4 is for drag racing.

While I understand what Johnny meant by this, it's certainly doesn't HAVE to be the case. The C4 was used after all, in the 88HP 70's era Pinto. If you're looking for a bullet-proof 3-speed, it's a much better solution than the C3, but NOT plug-n-play swap-able.

Post by **Ed Lijewski** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:27 pm

DrFunkenstein wrote:
Ed Lijewski wrote:Trust me, Brad (yeah; it'd be something new, I know.... ); it's a C3. that's why I kept it. Actually, I kept it, it got buried under newer magazines, and just during the holidays did I unearth it--and was completely engrossed in reading it.

YMMV
Would it be possible to scan the article into a pdf and post it or email it? I'm not completely inept with wrenches (I did manage to pull the head off thing thing to get the valves worked on, just don't ask how long it took... ), and was even considering a self-rebuild of the C3 if the A4LD didn't work out (which it doesn't look like it will).

Well, I've got egg on my face--from my own hands! Brad was right; the article is on rebuilding the C4. In reading it --twice--I now realize I was internalizing the procedure and photos and applying it to the C3; that's why in my mind I was so certain the article was on the C3 when I posted about it from memory.

But there probably aren't enough differences between the C4 and C3 to make a difference in rebuilding either of them against that article.

Which by the way, was from "Mustangs and Fords."

I'll see if I can scan it so the photos are clear enough to be useful.

YMMV