Country First

[milehighXR]

If they go thru with it we should all stop paying the illegal anyhow income tax. Actually we should do that regardless. If this passes, I may tell my credit card companies(well Discover anyhow) where they can shove my debt... If big corps can get a bailout I should too right

[merkurmaniac]

Mile high dood, I was making up the $50 an hour bit. I have no idea what a union door hanger makes, but with the health care costs they have, its not a global -free-market-supportable wage. The market tells us that.

Oh, and Mike McCreight, c'mon dood, your Canadian, eh. You don't have a horse in this race. Oh wait, didn't the Canadian Govt just put up $50 Bln Cdn or something like that. Heh heh. Better gather up those loonies so yall can chip in. This ones going thermonuclular, or at least globular (synthetic quote of G. Bush).

[AnHonestCitizen]

I'm old enough to remember that all during the 90's Conservative pundits of all stripes were complaining about the fact that Bill Clinton was getting all the credit for the economic growth that happened while he was President. They were trying to tell us that the growth REALLY started under the first President Bush's watch, and we just didn't see it until Clinton got in the White House. (Never mind that it lasted over two terms and was the longest sustained period of growth in our economy ever.)
Now there are SOME people here who would have us believe that once the Democrats got a slim majority in Congress in 2006, the whole economy INSTANTLY turned to crap. Never mind the fact that by 2006 Bush and the Republicans had taken us from ZERO debt in 2000 to MULTIPLE TRILLIONS of debt by 2006. And had by that time already broken all the debt records previously set during the Reagan/Bush era. Yeah that had nothing to do with it. Democrats, we all know, instantly ruin everything just by walking in the room.

[DPDISXR4Ti]

I'm reminded of a quote from Jim Bills, SVP Sales for Novell in the early 90's....

It's amazing how much you can accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit.

[GeneticRehab]

QUIT OUT SOURCING JOBS TO SAVE PENNIES!!!!! This would greatly help this country. Middle class blue collar use to have a good living. Not anymore due to the start up of NAFTA. Plus Those MBA's need to be left out in the cold. Those bean counting worthless pieces of crap are ruining the country. Greed, it all boils down to greed and lack of personal responsibility!! Till this mentality changes, we are screwed.

[John Brennan]

Democrats, we all know, instantly ruin everything just by walking in the room.

Pretty much-- especially when they have B.O...

[merkurmaniac]

QUIT OUT SOURCING JOBS TO SAVE PENNIES!!!!!

The one hope that I saw for this is high gas prices. Fuel costs make it harder to ship goods around the world economically, plus with rising labour costs in China (turns out it not a bottomless pit of zombie workers after all) some chinese manufacturing jobs are being outsourced to vietnam. Feel any better ? Although I did see a thing on TV about how a guy had brought his furniture manufacturing business back to North Carolina because of high shipping costs, quality issues, rising chinese labour costs, and cheaper local labour. So, the free market is working for you, you just had to be knocked down a peg or two on your wages. Nice huh ?

Oh, and for my industry, it started about 2000. I guess it was that dang minority congress that f'ed it all up.

Oh and tax breaks for companies ? F'k em. When Stanley tools moved to the bahamas, or Haliburton moves to Dubai, I wonder how much the Gubmint makes off of them in taxes. I bet that the effective tax rate is pittifully small. So, if the companies don't pay it, and the rich don't pay it, and the poor don't pay it, who does ? Middle class. No, my kids will pay it. We run a deficit, and they get stuck with the bill. Good thing that we have had a "lower taxes, smaller government, and lower deficits president."

[merkurmaniac]

Man, that was a downer. Where is our cheerleader to give us a big rah rah rah. ? I prolly need some lessons in selective history, tweaked economics, and rose coloring glasses. I am so out of touch.

Oh wait, I forget, we are going to make money on this bailout... How you ask, VOLUME !!!!

[AnHonestCitizen]

Hey everybody.
So, still no answer to my ???, huh? What a long strange trip it's been in such a short time. We've gotten far afield, with a whole lotta spices thrown in the Gumbo. Gotta love this Wide, Wide World of Web we got here. Did you know that Al Gore invented it, and John McCain is responsible for the Blackberry? True, all true. Sarah Palin thinks humans and dinosaurs shared teh Erth at like teh same time and junk. if links are necessary then links can be provided at a later date, but it be also true. I heard it, I'm tellin ya, I red it. Don't mind me, just keep talking past each other. Republicrats and Democans have responsibility to American families. The "Protect American Families from the Families of other Americas Act" is vital legislature they say, or so I've heard, and who I am to offer an opinion in contradiction to this obvious fact that is fact by dint of being factual. But "Qua, qua qua", right folks? No one is reading this. Don't turn around, oh no, the commissar’s in town. Just skip to end where I'm sure to say something inflammatory. That’s why I say I, like every American I’m speaking with, we’re ill about this position that we have been put in. Where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health care reform that is needed to help shore up our economy. You are itching to reply, aren't you. Um, helping, oh, it’s got to be about job creation, too. Get your tube sock ready, won't be long before you can keystroke yourself into a petite mal of mental masturbation. Shoring up our economy, and putting it back on the right track. So health care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions, and tax relief for Americans, and trade â€â€

[John Brennan]

We thought they were rhetorical.

[CV12Steve]

How much income taxes/Social Security/Medicare do they pay?
If they rent/own they are paying property tax.
If they spend they pay sales tax.

Income taxes..? You really believe, no swallow, the unproven assertions that all or even most or even a plurality of them are paying income taxes?

Or that they're paying what they actually owe re those taxes?

Or that they truly and faithfully report what all/ALL that they earn on their tax returns? Lots of immigrant advocacy organizations assert that they do, but none/NONE has ever done a factually based and objectively conducted study to determine exactly how accurate their reported payments of taxes are, related to exactly how much they actually earned.

No more or less so than any other employee. Income tax is witheld by the employer. If Tyson for example, which employed 900 during a sting, isn't witholding the taxes that's a different issue.

If they rent, they DO NOT pay property tax (typical liberal San Francisco, La Raza, MALDEF spin...).

Property tax is being paid on the rental proerty; it's factored into the rent; anybody that rents a piece of property effectively pays the property tax (along with the landlord's income tax).

"They pay sales taxes": BFD. Like that entitles them to the free ride that so many of them finesse after crawling through, under or over the border fence.

In California sales tax and property tax (to a lesser extent after Prop 13) pay for most local services.

[merkurmaniac]

Steve,

Don't you see it ? Those four guatemalens living in an aparment with no TV or telephone are trying to steal your job. They may not speak english, or have any technical skills, but watch out. After shafting you out of the income tax on their menial labour, what about $50 tax on $8,000 a year, they'll low bid you out of the game. After spending 6 days walking in the desert, a day spent tie-ing rebar in the sun, (while the world passes them by in air conditioned comfort) prolly seems pretty good.

The germans have their turks, the french their algerians, the Spanish get north africans, the Kuaitis get pakistanis and phillipinos. But no, not us. Real Americans want those jobs. As long as they get breaks, health care, and a decent wage. That bridge over the Brazos river will cost you a little more, like maybe triple, but that's fine, we can afford it. Oh wait, you want a work force that's drug free ? O.K., now it will cost you four times, but that's O.K, we can afford it.

So John, you mentioned feeling threatened by immigrants, jobwise. I am curious what type of job that was ? No assault here, I am just curious, as I guess that illegals compete for better jobs too. Maybe a different shade of brown, as Asif Manvi of the Daily show said, "No John, I am brown, but I am tech support/cardiologist brown, not dishwasher/landscaper brown."

[John Brennan]

You answered your own question in your last paragraph. Yes, the jobs they take over tend to be on the lower end, rather than the higher end, of the economic scale. Low wages encourage other low wages, and this is felt throughout the entire wage/skill set spectrum, just as the obverse, or "a rising tides raises all boats," is also true.

If there is one thing I'd like to get through a few thick skulls, it is this: the discussion here is not about racism. It is about nationalism. It is not about the color of peoples' skins, but the colors of the flags they fly. Back when I was a carpenter in my youth ( when the last of the Wooly Mammoths were rapidly disappearing!), everyone I worked with was either an American citizen, or was on the path to becoming one. The language everyone spoke on the job site was English. Now, go to a construction site here and that will not be the case-- at least up until recently, when we woke up and started fighting back.

Go to any Government office: Unemployment, the IRS, what have you, here, and tell me what you see. The vast majority of people there, for whatever reason, will not be American citizens.

About the best article I've yet read on the subject was one Ed sent me, a while back. I've saved it, because here is the true, big-picture story of what is taking place. In the end, it boils down to what culture you wish to live in and call your home:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

Yes, it's a bit of a read, but an excellent piece that will do far more to explain my position than I can.

[merkurmaniac]

I dunno about the nationalism, in conjunction with a free market economy. IMO, the illegals coming here (complex matter to which I do not know of a solution) to fill low end jobs is their response to the economic forces at work. So is the falling tides sinks all boats effect on wages. We knew this would happen when we compete with countries with billions of people who earn almost nothing. outsourcing is no different. Its an economic response.

I am not happy about any of the above; however, I DO bennefit from it, in terms of lower costs of goods and services.

Recall also, that very similar arguments were likely made when seemingly huge waves of Italian, Irish, and later vietnamese immigrants came here. I work with the son of some vietnamese boat people. His parents maybe didn't learn the language and culture as quickly, but he is a well educated and valuable member of our company. Sure some end up in gangs or commit crimes, and they should be quickly kicked out, but the vast majority seem to want to blend in and learn.

A big problem that I have with it, is the ones who break the law and do not wait in line for their visa/greencard, whatever. They cut in line, either by sneaking across the border, paying a bribe, or maybe even just being able to afford some lawyer. By the same token, a lot of these are motivated people who are most eager to leave their homeland behind and make a better life for themselves.

There is some test for immigrants right now on cnn.com. I have not read it, but I bet it will show that there are too many disinterested dumbasses here who take it all for granted and know nothing of their countrie's history or government.

[milehighXR]

Mile high dood, I was making up the $50 an hour bit. I have no idea what a union door hanger makes, but with the health care costs they have, its not a global -free-market-supportable wage. The market tells us that.

Yeah I know they don't make $50 in the unions, but hanging a door is low skill in IMO, and worth maybe $12-15 an hour plus benys. When I stared out as a machinist in a mold shop one guy told had commented that my punk ass(19 at the time) would be making $19 an hour in a union shop and complained. I agreed, I knew nothing back then, and was certainly not worth $19 hour. But if it was a union shop that's what it would have been. I think that's crap you have to earn yer keep.

Unions have out lived their usefulness IMO... That's why I went crazy.