intercoolers--all info!!!

[turbofan]

as i'm looking: here's what i'm saying. look at the forge RS500 core. see how between each bar, there is about 2 "bar widths" of space for air to flow? example: the bar looks to be maybe 5/16 thick, and the space between the bars looks to be maybe 5/8 inch thick. on the supercoupe, the bars look about 3/8 and the VERY stuffed spaces are the same. it just seems like there are many other coolers designed for much better external flow, that's all.

[Ed Lijewski]

And I'd say from the pic that the TCIC bars/fins are the same as for the SCIC, another reason I chose to run the TCIC.

BYW, the TCIC was manufactured, I believe, by the same company that made at least one of the Saab ICs--the smaller one (that Bwana Brad has, maybe?); that IC is always described as the "...insert name here.." IC when it's on Ebay or talked about. I can't recall the company's name just now, but months ago I was intrigued with knowing who manufactured the TCIC and on one of two I have there was a label indentifying that company.


YMMV

[DPDISXR4Ti]

One thing to note is that sometimes what you think logically makes sense, does not. Take a look at the test at the link below, done by the late Gus Mahon - what an absolute shame this guy was killed .

http://home.earthlink.net/~turbogus2/intercoolers.html

I have one of the Supra IC's and agree that it LOOKS like it wouldn't flow well, internally or externally. The results clearly show otherwise. I may have to figure out a way to use this cooler some day.

[anglin]

as i'm looking: here's what i'm saying. look at the forge RS500 core. see how between each bar, there is about 2 "bar widths" of space for air to flow? example: the bar looks to be maybe 5/16 thick, and the space between the bars looks to be maybe 5/8 inch thick. on the supercoupe, the bars look about 3/8 and the VERY stuffed spaces are the same. it just seems like there are many other coolers designed for much better external flow, that's all.

We're going to have to figure out if your point here is the fin density is too great or the open space between the tubes/bars is too small. I'm not going to try to discuss both angles with you. Pick one and we'll discuss that. Do you want to talk about the width of the gap between the tubes/bars or do you want to talk about fin density?

High fin density = good
cheap intercoolers = low fin density

I think what you'll find, with intercoolers in hand, is that the only difference between the tube and fin intercooler and bar and plate intercooler, at least externally, is the width of the solid section. The gap between the tubes and the gap between the bars is probably about the same. I have a bar and plate intercooler and a tube and fin intercooler at home. I'll compare the gaps between tubes/bars this weekend.

Ed, you car has the TC IC on it already?

[DPDISXR4Ti]

Blackstone is the company that manufactured the Saab 900 IC - I believe both the all-AL one and the plastic end-tank version. They also make radiators for lots of Euro cars. I don't think they made the TC IC, but I could be wrong.

[Ed Lijewski]

Anglin: Yes, TCIC on one XR (and a TCIC waiting to be put on the other XR soon).

Brad: I posted Gus's link on page one of this magnus opus, FYI.
YMMV

[Ed Lijewski]

Blackstone is the company that manufactured the Saab 900 IC - I believe both the all-AL one and the plastic end-tank version. They also make radiators for lots of Euro cars. I don't think they made the TC IC, but I could be wrong.

I pretty sure that's on the label on one of two TCICs I have. It would have made sense for Ford to procure ICs for these applications from a recognized source of expertize.

YMMV

[Ed Lijewski]

One thing to note is that sometimes what you think logically makes sense, does not. Take a look at the test at the link below, done by the late Gus Mahon - what an absolute shame this guy was killed .

Was he killed, or did he die of compications from Lyme Disease? One of his posts written not long before his demise (covers it either way ) notes he had experienced some issues from that disease as the explanation for why he had been out of touch and not seen on the drag strip for a while. You couldn't tell from his words alone how serious his condition was, but for him to make mention of it seemed important.

YMMV

[turbofan]

as i'm looking: here's what i'm saying. look at the forge RS500 core. see how between each bar, there is about 2 "bar widths" of space for air to flow? example: the bar looks to be maybe 5/16 thick, and the space between the bars looks to be maybe 5/8 inch thick. on the supercoupe, the bars look about 3/8 and the VERY stuffed spaces are the same. it just seems like there are many other coolers designed for much better external flow, that's all.

We're going to have to figure out if your point here is the fin density is too great or the open space between the tubes/bars is too small. I'm not going to try to discuss both angles with you. Pick one and we'll discuss that. Do you want to talk about the width of the gap between the tubes/bars or do you want to talk about fin density?

High fin density = good
cheap intercoolers = low fin density

I think what you'll find, with intercoolers in hand, is that the only difference between the tube and fin intercooler and bar and plate intercooler, at least externally, is the width of the solid section. The gap between the tubes and the gap between the bars is probably about the same. I have a bar and plate intercooler and a tube and fin intercooler at home. I'll compare the gaps between tubes/bars this weekend.

Ed, you car has the TC IC on it already?

sorry anglin, my last post was written before i had the chance to read your post... i'm talking about both. i'm saying the SC ic wanted a good flowing core while keeping the size down. the 2 ways of accomplishing this was to have the bar and plate with big fat bars to flow very well, and smaller spaces between them. it makes for a smaller cooler. it seems they also boosted the number of fins to help cooling.

overall: i'm not saying the SC cooler is bad. it's an excellent cooler for the size. but i just look at it and think "it can't be too easy for air to get through there..." it just seems like it could be better, that's all.

[turbofan]

One thing to note is that sometimes what you think logically makes sense, does not. Take a look at the test at the link below, done by the late Gus Mahon - what an absolute shame this guy was killed .

Was he killed, or did he die of compications from Lyme Disease? One of his posts written not long before his demise (covers it either way ) notes he had experienced some issues from that disease as the explanation for why he had been out of touch and not seen on the drag strip for a while. You couldn't tell from his words alone how serious his condition was, but for him to make mention of it seemed important.

YMMV

i believe he was killed in a motorcycle accident.

[got_xr?]

i didnt think that the npr was a tube and fin... the "tubes" air pasages are radiused at the front and back but it is is now where near as skinny as a generic tube and fin.. asside from that even if it is a tube and fin do you think i got a alrigth buy for 90$?? its a large one...

[turbofan]

i didnt think that the npr was a tube and fin... the "tubes" air pasages are radiused at the front and back but it is is now where near as skinny as a generic tube and fin.. asside from that even if it is a tube and fin do you think i got a alrigth buy for 90$?? its a large one...

the NPR is a good cooler. for $90 you did quite well, i'd say.

[DPDISXR4Ti]

http://www.gusmahon.org/

[MarkM]

speaking of Don Haulsee, i have a friend who is VERY knowledgeable about turbochargers and intercoolers. this is what my friend had to say about Don Haulsee's intercooler primer:

A few of the "highlights" from my list of issues with his web page info:

* at one point, he says 20 psi makes the charge air temp "almost 400"
degrees. Then for his intercooler power charts, he says he the charge air
temp is "calculated" at 293 degrees. So which is it--almost 400 or 293?

* the guy apparently doesn't know how to properly measure backpressure.
Even the worst intercooler in his comparo has a pressure drop (according to
him) of only .7 psi. A stock TurboII IC on our engines (dodge 2.2 SOHC) has about 2 psi
pressure drop at 15 psi; the drop increases to at least 6 psi when you're
at 25 psi boost (it's not a linear relationship). The single Volvo IC has
nearly equal backpressure, yet this guy says it's nonexistant. What gives?

* for all his IC power charts, he bases the power figure EXCLUSIVELY on the temp of the air as it exits the IC. This is a gross oversight. When
backpressure begins to add up, your turbo has to work harder to overcome it. This increases your exhaust restriction, which will in turn rob you of horsepower. In other words, you can have two intercoolers which produce equal outlet temps but they will result in different amounts of horsepower. He claims otherwise.

* and that's another thing. He has supposedly written a fancy computer
spreadsheet to calculate power output. Where is his factual, real-world
evidence to back up his claims? I don't see a single dyno plot, or a
single timeslip. He can calculate until he's blue in the face, but it
don't mean jack until you can verify it in the real world.

* speaking of, how exactly is this guy qualified to make sweeping
generalizations? Corky Bell (author of Maximum Boost) is a degreed engineer.
Furthermore, Corky has been designing, building and testing turbocharged
engines since the SEVENTIES. He has decades of real-world experience; he
doesn't base his beliefs on goofy ideas or unsubstantiated calculations.
Why does this Don guy get to make pronouncements with no evidence or
experience to back them up?

* I have a Turbonetics catalog. They acquired Spearco a few years back, and
the catalog shows all the standard Spearco cores you can buy. For each
core, they show the flow rate (at a given pressure drop) and also list
horsepower capacity for each core. Their HP figures are DIRECTLY related
to flow rate, NOT thermal efficiency. Spearch has been designing and
testing ICs for decades, and they've got the experience to say what works
and what does not. Don seems to not agree with them. Who are YOU gonna trust?


end of quote. i've read this book Corky has written, and it's amazing. check it out sometime: once again, it's called Maximum Boost. everything he says makes PERFECT sense and is very easy to understand.

sorry guys but on this one, don's all wet...

Sorry for the late response to this, but I've been on the road this week and didn't have the time before now.

For those interested, here's a link to the Intercooler Primer:

http://www.merkurtech.com/merkurtech/ma ... primer.php

Here are a couple of links to some further discussion by Don about the mathematics of Charge Cooling and his IC Designer programs, plus a little about why he gets to make pronouncements (hint: he's got evidence and experience to back them up).

http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Analy ... olers.html
http://turboford.rothfam.com/cgi-bin/ul ... 986#000000

He isn't just pulling some random buzzwords out of a thermo or fluid dynamics textbook either. He's a "degreed engineer" from a little country school called VPI&SU. He's been professionally designing heat exchangers since the SEVENTIES. He's the inventor/co-inventor of record on a few patents too, but nothing too nifty in the heat exchanger field, sorry.

The IC Designer program is no longer available for download, but many people who downloaded when it was available have kept their copies and still refer to it today. Chris Roth (caroth at TurboFord), the guy who started TurboFord, breaks out his copy on a regular basis. It has acknowledged problems with pressure drop calculations, but I seem to remember Chris saying that IC Designer came acceptably close to his measured real-world results on more than one of his installations (paraphrasing).

Incidentally, Don is VERY big on instrumented results. Why do you suppose he included the section called "Verifying Intercooler Performance" AND included charts for converting thermistor resistances to temperature? He let me drive one of his XRs several years ago and he had a pre- and post-intercooler air temp indicator in his dash.

Obviously, nobody's perfect and Don's been known to make mistakes too. Who hasn't? But he knows the principles, he knows how to apply them and he's got years of experience doing it in the REAL WORLD.

Disclaimer: Don's a good friend of mine. It's probably not a big surprise to you to hear it. I was tempted to just forward a link to the original post to him, but he's busy enough as it is, and while I thought Brad's response was good as far as it went, there were too many slams that weren't addressed, so I decided to try to balance things out a little. I strongly encourage you to read the merkur encyclopedia and turboford links above since they include Don's own words. You definitely should reconsider who's all wet...

[GeneticRehab]

Well I have something here that is not too common. Its a escort group n 4x4 intercooler. I will let the pictures do the talking.





This is a bar and plate core. It has a water to air pre-cooler. I got this new for 180$ shipped to my door.