There's a used one on ebay going for twice that to my door!!! This is probably a stupid question, but what is a precooler? is it like a mini water to air intercooler before it hits the air to air intercooler?
Ed Lijewski wrote:I pretty sure that's on the label on one of two TCICs I have. It would have made sense for Ford to procure ICs for these applications from a recognized source of expertize.DPDISXR4Ti wrote:Blackstone is the company that manufactured the Saab 900 IC - I believe both the all-AL one and the plastic end-tank version. They also make radiators for lots of Euro cars. I don't think they made the TC IC, but I could be wrong.
YMMV
you mean where i mount it in my XR or where it sits in the stock car? it doesn't really matter if it has heatsoak in the standard car, does it?demonfire wrote:Ed, the MS6 suffers from some pretty bad heatsoak and detonation due to the IC being mounted where it is. check some of the boards.
If Demonfire meant this Ed, and if MS6 is the Mazdaspeed6, that engine may be more prone to detonation than the XR 2.3 for, inter alia, less rich mixture at WOT as a means to better gas mileage figures. Re the heatsoak it's undeniable that IC will pick up heat while idling or crawling, but it's fed fresh air from directly under the hood front lip via a narrow duct (not large, to be sure) to and through the IC. The key as always is motion. Is it the ideal stop-light race-for-pinks after we get out of this friggin parking lot set up; no. Does it do the job once underway; yes.demonfire wrote:Ed, the MS6 suffers from some pretty bad heatsoak and detonation due to the IC being mounted where it is. check some of the boards.
That's what I thought. I did do some reading about IC design, and it appears that there are different advantages and disadvantages to all the designs. For example, bar/plate seems to have the best flow through the core (which is better for performance, but tube/fin apparently causes less disturbance of air through the core (allowing for better flow to anything behind the core). Oh, and plate tube/fin is apparently a great compromise, but has less durability than the others. Oh, and it appears that they all cool about the same in general. It just seems there is a lot to think about... design, placement, size, pressure drop, air disturbance, etc. I'm just hoping that the huge investment (i.e. funded by Ford Motorsports) in development on mine will equate to good performance for the XR.MerkXRTurbo wrote:Yep, that would be tube/fin. The passages through a bar/plate IC are flat.
The Moose is on the table [title of a book about putting the unspoken issue onto the agenda]!!!! AKA, the $64,000 question.worked_xr wrote:BTW, anyone have any actual performance data on any of these ICs?
have you read the links i posted about intercoolers? do it. the user "turbominivan" knows what he's talking about, and he's DEFINITELY worth listening to.worked_xr wrote:That's what I thought. I did do some reading about IC design, and it appears that there are different advantages and disadvantages to all the designs. For example, bar/plate seems to have the best flow through the core (which is better for performance, but tube/fin apparently causes less disturbance of air through the core (allowing for better flow to anything behind the core). Oh, and plate tube/fin is apparently a great compromise, but has less durability than the others. Oh, and it appears that they all cool about the same in general. It just seems there is a lot to think about... design, placement, size, pressure drop, air disturbance, etc. I'm just hoping that the huge investment (i.e. funded by Ford Motorsports) in development on mine will equate to good performance for the XR.MerkXRTurbo wrote:Yep, that would be tube/fin. The passages through a bar/plate IC are flat.
BTW, anyone have any actual performance data on any of these ICs?
I did read a bunch of them, but there is also enough "noise" in 'em to get distracting. That said, if you re-read what that guy says, it is essentially the same as indicated. The plate/bar design has better internal flow than the tube/fin (extruded or not). I also realize that the bar/plate design will cool better per square centimeter, which means it is a more efficient design. That said, if you use a larger core in another design, or use more tubes, then you can compensate for the differences in efficiency. Its just a matter of trade-offs.turbofan wrote:have you read the links i posted about intercoolers? do it. the user "turbominivan" knows what he's talking about, and he's DEFINITELY worth listening to.
as far as cooling equality, it all depends on the core, but to be honest, often times the bar and plate cores are better. read the links, you'll see what i mean. really the only benefits of a tube and fin are that it's cheap and it doesn't block air to things behind it.
Yes, by MS6 i meant the Mazdaspeed 6. A lot of people are having problems with the car during warm weather and low speed (ie, not highway speed) lack of power. the car pulls a lot of timing when the IATs reach X temp (not sure) but there is a bunch of information on it on the MS6 boards. I was researching this car as i was considering purchasing one to replace my SVTF.Ed Lijewski wrote:If Demonfire meant this Ed, and if MS6 is the Mazdaspeed6, that engine may be more prone to detonation than the XR 2.3 for, inter alia, less rich mixture at WOT as a means to better gas mileage figures. Re the heatsoak it's undeniable that IC will pick up heat while idling or crawling, but it's fed fresh air from directly under the hood front lip via a narrow duct (not large, to be sure) to and through the IC. The key as always is motion. Is it the ideal stop-light race-for-pinks after we get out of this friggin parking lot set up; no. Does it do the job once underway; yes.demonfire wrote:Ed, the MS6 suffers from some pretty bad heatsoak and detonation due to the IC being mounted where it is. check some of the boards.
YMMV
that is absolutely not true. while many large intercoolers have a lot of pressure drop, it is not because they are large, but because they are of poor design. the best way to build an intercooler is with lots of internal finning and LOTS of core.worked_xr wrote:turbofan wrote:have you read the links i posted about intercoolers? do it. the user "turbominivan" knows what he's talking about, and he's DEFINITELY worth listening to.
as far as cooling equality, it all depends on the core, but to be honest, often times the bar and plate cores are better. read the links, you'll see what i mean. really the only benefits of a tube and fin are that it's cheap and it doesn't block air to things behind it.
On a less academic, more applicable note, I think it is more important to match a proper IC to the application. Bigger coolers often cause bigger pressure drops, which isn't good. Too small and it won't be able to support the power/boost requirements, no matter what design it is. I just figure the IC has to meet the needs of the application, and if it does so effectively, I don't think the details of design or size really matters as much, which is why I asked the "Moose is on the table" question I guess.
