Anglin's Road Car Projects and History

[anglin]

So, I went out to the car this morning to start it for the first time since I drove it home from my brother-in-law's place Saturday night and it gave me some crap about starting. The temp Saturday night was about 10 degrees and this morning the temp was about 20 degrees. It had no hesitation cranking Saturday but did hesitate today. yay.

It actually behaved much better than it was previous to me doing the work to it, but it didn't crank the first time, so 'close' doesn't count as fixed. This time it did crank on the third attempt which is much better than previous where it would take 8 to 12 attempts.

I'm going to suspect corrosion on the inner terminals of the starter solenoid now. There aren't many other options left. So, it's time to replace that. I have good spares, but that didn't get me anywhere before. It's a darn shame that the only way to check if solenoid has corrosion is by tearing it apart. I don't think I could get the solenoid to close (with the starter disconnected) in order to check the resistance without burning out the solenoid winding. If anybody has any suugestions for testing non-destructively, please let me know.

That's my update.

[Ray]

Anglin, check continuity of the in / out on the solenoid after you disconnect the starter wire. If resistance is more than, say, 0.2 or so ohms, it's probably that. Luckily, the part is about $15. However, that is a sealed unit so i would suspect something else that can reduce voltage to the starter.

Try removing the starter and cleaning the bellhousing and bolts, then put a little antiseize on the bolts - the starter draws ground from the chassis and if that connection is compromised, it might not work that well. Another suggestion might be to run a few upgraded engine grounds and upgrade the main battery ground, or at the very least clean the connection. However, with the condition of your batt + cable, i fear the grounds might also be shot. It's a circuit, so a good positive wire is nothing w/o a good ground.

You can check ground the same way, find a random spot on the engine, and check resistance to batt neg. If the resistance is fairly high (0.5 ohms or more) upgrade. I prefer even lower, like i said, of 0.2 ohms.

As a second test for the solenoid, check voltage out to the starter, in reference to voltage at the battery DURING THE SAME test (obviously the batt voltage will drop when you click the solenoid, hence me saying disconnect the starter wire), but even activating the relay might cause a little bit of a drop.

[DPDISXR4Ti]

I'm with Ray.... whenever confronted with an automotive electrical issue, remember the golden rule.... 80% of all electrical issues are ground-related.

Of course, my second rule is.... Have junkyard spares of everything so you don't have to do real diagnostic work.

[anglin]

Of course, my second rule is.... Have junkyard spares of everything so you don't have to do real diagnostic work.

I tried that already with the starter and that (apparently) didn't get me far. I'd try it with the solenoid, but it looks like I'm not getting anywhere with that.

I'm going to check the grounds while the engine is running as soon as I get a chance to do so. I cleaned the ground at the block, checked the battery to block ground cable resistance and it was perfectly acceptable, and reattached the ground that connects from the firewall near the brake booster to the intake manifold when I did the work last Saturday. (It had been disconnected for some time.)

Thanks again for the input.

For those who visit this thread but not the other, regarding testing of the solenoid, here's a link:

http://forum.merkurclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11002

[CV12Steve]

Are you sure the battery is fully charged? Granted I live in balmy California, so no first-hand experience, but if your charge is low won't you get fewer amps out of it at freezing. Repeated cranking attempts, usually longer than a successful start, would eventually heat the battery enough to "liberate" additional amps. By then, the thick-as-tar oil would start to flow . . .

[anglin]

Are you sure the battery is fully charged?

Yes. The battery was new at the beginning of this month. The charging system (implicitly) functions properly. I put at least 150 miles a week on the car which involves starting it at least 10 times. I drive a distance of about 14 miles per trip with mixed city and highway driving. The car cranks with a completely normal sound when it cranks (based on 150,000 miles of combined road use in 4 different daily driven XR4Tis).

Thanks for the suggestion though. I like the "battery likes the workout" theory. I just don't think it applies to this problem.

[CV12Steve]

Well, it was a shot.
Here in the Central Valley (CA) I rarely have to deal with anything like your conditions. We're all the way down to 42° and raining, from a high of 47°.

[Ray]

Anglin, you dont have to check grounds while the engine is running. Just check resistance at a starter bolt, or other acceptable engine point to batt neg, and see the resistance. If you can improve it, improve it. Also check the main batt to engine ground which bolts to one of the alt bolts - that wire as well might be compromised, and STILL show good resistance to the block as you have other methods to ground the engine. In addition, there is another engine ground from the frame rail to the engine on the drivers side near the coil pack. Check that one.

If both your big wire grounds are bad, then you're trying to feed X amps (how much does an XR4Ti starter draw? i bet it's 60+ amps) thru a couple small cables, which in themselves will act like resistors given enough current.

[anglin]

I tried that already with the starter and that (apparently) didn't get me far. I'd try it with the solenoid, but it looks like I'm not getting anywhere with that.

So anyway, it's been a long day at school; 6 solid hours of differential equations/matrix algebra work after two lectures and other homework.

Lately it has been taking 2 to 4 attempts before the starter would crank and the engine would start. It was clearly an improvement over the previous condition, but not right. My schedule has precluded further diagnosis. I went to the car this evening in the parking lot at school and cranked it. It took four attempts. After I got home, Connie asked me to make a quick trip to the store. When it started and I backed the key off to the run position it sounded like I let it crank after the engine started just a little bit too long. No biggie. When I left the store and started the engine, the starter stayed engaged even when I shut the engine off and removed the key. Yay! I popped the hood and removed the positive terminal from the battery. Thank goodness for those marine terminals. The starter was cranking notably slower by the time I got that done. So, I rapped on the solenoid (and the inner fender) with my knuckles to get the solenoid guts loose and reconnected the cable. It started normally the next attempt, so I drove it home.

I'm now preparing to replace the solenoid. It looks like the one part I didn't replace was having some effect on the situation. I should have been throwing parts at it. Of course, with my 12 hour school days, I'm not available when auto parts stores are open, so I'll be digging around in my spares pile for a good replacement.

I love electromechanical problems. I'll disassemble the solenoid and take pictures of anything of value and post them here. I guess I don't have to worry about non-destructive testing anymore.

(edit: typos fixed)

[CV12Steve]

Sounds like the Bendex drive is sticking.

[anglin]

Sounds like the Bendex drive is sticking.

Three starters with the same problem says it's not the Bendix. I just got done swapping the solenoid with one from my pile-o-parts and the symptom appears to be completely gone. Of course, for a couple days after the replacement of the cables, the symptom appeared to be gone then too. We'll see.

I disassembled the solenoid that came off the car. I would upload pics right now but Connie is using the PC that has my FTP program on it. There was carbon tracking in places you wouldn't expect it. The terminals had been subjected to arcing. I don't know that any of this is out of the ordinary though. The mechanism didn't seem the smoothest, but again, I couldn't detect any obvious signs of failure. That seems to match the symptom, though. It only got hung up once and sorta hung up once. Remember that I could always hear the solenoid popping when I hit the key, it just wouldn't turn the starter.

[GeneticRehab]

I know this is off topic. But this is for Chris and anyone that wears their wedding band while working on cars. Take it off. I know some off you are wanting to keep it on. But what good is it when it gets hooked on some part of the car that is falling off and tears your finger off. I sound like some old codger. But I know a guy that got his finger tore off because of this. I always cringe when I see this. I don't wear any jewelry at work. And it has probably saved my finger a few times. Just my .02

[anglin]

... this is for Chris and anyone that wears their wedding band while working on cars. Take it off.

I'm about to post pictures of my wedding band in pictures of car parts, implying that I did more work with my wedding band on. You are absolutely right though. I've seen pictures of degloved ring fingers and know how gross a finger looks with no skin on it and my buddy's dad grounded the electrical system in his car with it, melting the ring. Bad times. I should take it off. Period. 'Tis better to remove the ring for an hour or two then not have a finger to wear it on ever again. BTW, my wedding band is oval shaped from torquing XR4Ti wheel bearings.

Here are the pics of the starter solenoid as promised.

the solenoid, as removed from the car:



rivets drilled out and the backing/ground plate freed from the casing:



the solenoid coil is grounded to the backing plate and the connection was in good shape:



back of the solenoid disassembled:



coil winding removed from the casing; the slug that gets acted upon by the coil is visible in the middle of the solenoid casing:



slug removed showing the copper post in the middle which is part of the piece that bridges the two male terminals of the solenoid:



the tail of the side wire is visible along with the post that it connects to on the outside:



solenoid in the off/open position (top) and and on/closed position:



once the steel liner is removed (c-shaped piece in the upper left corner of the picture) the components that carry all of the current come out; note the indications of heavy arcing; probably completely normal but it was the most obvious sign of something possibly wrong; perhaps someone who has disassembled a "good" solenoid can share their experience:



So, there it is. The car has started perfectly on two occasions with the "NOS" junkyard solenoid. It may be cranking a little bit faster as well, but that is fairly subjective and a very hard to quantify.

The ring is coming off next time and from now on.

[DPDISXR4Ti]

The ring is coming off next time and from now on.

I sure hope Connie doesn't read that statement out of context!

[anglin]

I sure hope Connie doesn't read that statement out of context!

Which is exactly why I have never removed my ring during garage work. The garage might get construed as the other woman.