intercoolers--all info!!!

[worked_xr]

Whoa...

Bigger coolers often cause bigger pressure drops, which isn't good.

that is absolutely not true. while many large intercoolers have a lot of pressure drop, it is not because they are large, but because they are of poor design. the best way to build an intercooler is with lots of internal finning and LOTS of core.

Maybe this is semantics, but my statement was meant as a genearlization about bigger ICs, and was meant in the context of being in comparison to smaller ICs of the same design on the same application. Your own statement says "many large intercoolers have a lot of pressure drop"... notice my own statement uses the word "often", meaning not in all cases or applications. Perhaps I could've gone into micro detail and been exceptional explicit with my meaning, but I figured in the context of the paragraph from which it has been extracted, which was about matching the IC size and design to properly meet the application's needs, that I didn't need to go into that kind of detail. Apparently I was wrong.

With regard to:

you also mention how the tube and fin core causes less internal disturbance, and it seems as though you are listing that as a benefit. However, mixing up the air inside the intercooler is what allows the air to transfer heat. the only way the air gives up its heat is by coming in contact with the fins, and when the air is just flowing straight through the tubes, this doesn't happen, and the thermal efficiency of the intercooler is very poor.

Actually, after reading my post, I was definitely not clear. Bar/plate offers better pressurized flow through the core, while tube/fin offers better ambient air flow (i.e. outside the core). In any case, I was under the impression that the bar/plate design has better efficiency and less pressure drop... is that not right?

BTW, none of this has yet to answer the "moose" question. Even the original threads are very very very skimpy on actual data... it's a bunch of theory and talk. In the original DSM threads, even the mentions of how to get pressure drop and efficiency data sorta got ignored. Seems like a worthwhile project to attempt. ?

[Ed Lijewski]

BTW, none of this has yet to answer the "moose" question. Even the original threads are very very very skimpy on actual data... it's a bunch of theory and talk. In the original DSM threads, even the mentions of how to get pressure drop and efficiency data sorta got ignored. Seems like a worthwhile project to attempt. ?

Amen.

Did I forget to say "Amen"?

Well, just to be safe....AMEN!.

YMMV

[turbofan]

i have no idea WTF the moose question is.

sorry, i wasn't tryin to flame or offend, just trying to clarify.

what i said was that often time bigger intercoolers do have more pressure drop, but it's NOT because they are big, but because they are of poor design. bigger is better, BUT that doesn't mean a volvo cooler is better than my 18X12X3 bar and plate aftermarket cooler because the Volvo is of poor design from a strictly performance standpoint.

sorry about the confusion with tube and fin. seemed like you were talking about internal flow.

if you want a little more raw data and a little less open discussion, here's another link: http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm . turbominivan provided this in the second chat thread, and it's excellent. LONG read, but WELL worth it, and a little less BS and a little more facts.

[worked_xr]

It's all good... no offense taken, no noticeable burn marks. Clarification is always good, so no problem.

[Ed Lijewski]

i have no idea WTF the moose question is.

Oh, please; don;t get so caught up in your own rhetoric and argument (like all of the rest of us ) and forget to pay attention to what others say or ask. You're young; there's a chance you can still avoid that fate.

The Moose [on the table] question is what this whole discussion is all about at essence: data. Performance comparability data.

Without that, we're--again--at the point where the discussion isn't any different than bench racing, sports fantasy leagues, or other typical stuff guys play mind games about.

YMMV

[turbofan]

i have no idea WTF the moose question is.

Oh, please; don;t get so caught up in your own rhetoric and argument (like all of the rest of us ) and forget to pay attention to what others say or ask. You're young; there's a chance you can still avoid that fate.

The Moose [on the table] question is what this whole discussion is all about at essence: data. Performance comparability data.

Without that, we're--again--at the point where the discussion isn't any different than bench racing, sports fantasy leagues, or other typical stuff guys play mind games about.

YMMV

so basically, he's saying cut the crap and give the real data.

the real data is in the original post. i have continued updating it. now, every core is listed as tube and fin or bar and plate. also, i have changed a couple of the information bits to make them more clear (some were written like crap!) and added information as i've learned more. keep checking back. i'll post in the forum every time i update.

[worked_xr]

the real data is in the original post. i have continued updating it. now, every core is listed as tube and fin or bar and plate. also, i have changed a couple of the information bits to make them more clear (some were written like crap!) and added information as i've learned more. keep checking back. i'll post in the forum every time i update.

I really appreciate your work on this. I did notice there was one that gave good pre/post temp data... we need more of that is all I'm saying. More data, less rumor and grapevine stuff. I'm actually surprised a decent list with kind of data hasn't been done already somewhere on the internet already.

[turbofan]

the real data is in the original post. i have continued updating it. now, every core is listed as tube and fin or bar and plate. also, i have changed a couple of the information bits to make them more clear (some were written like crap!) and added information as i've learned more. keep checking back. i'll post in the forum every time i update.

I really appreciate your work on this. I did notice there was one that gave good pre/post temp data... we need more of that is all I'm saying. More data, less rumor and grapevine stuff. I'm actually surprised a decent list with kind of data hasn't been done already somewhere on the internet already.

no kidding. there's some decent info on Gus Mahon's site, but since his standards of measurement are home-grown, it's only valid when comparing the exact intercoolers he tested. for example, he tested the NPR, DSM, Saab 9000, Volvo, Supra, Spearco, TC, Mopar. i'll go ahead and post the results of his test, but these results are valid only when comparing these intercoolers between each other, not absolutely against all other 'coolers.

[Ed Lijewski]

Intercooler (band)

Intercooler is a rock band out of Brisbane, Australia. They have a couple of EPs out and a full length CD titled Old School Is The New School. The band consist of Darek Mudge (guitars), Joel Potter (bass), Damon Cox (drums/vocals) and Phil Ballantyne (vocals/guitars).

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler_%28band%29"
Categories: Australian musical group stubs | Australian musical groups

YMMV

[Ed Lijewski]

"TMICs are used in many street cars, such as all current intercooled Subarus, the MINI Cooper'S and also in older cars such as the Mazda RX-7 (86-91 model).

A properly designed top mount intercooler's advantage in responsiveness is preferred over more lagging front mount intercoolers in situations where responsiveness is more important than total power - notably in rallying, drifting, autocross and touge."

"Advantages
The TMIC may be placed close to the turbocharger and/or supercharger compressor and to the engine's intake. As a result, the intake tubing can be kept short. The longer the path from the intercooler to the engine, the more air must be pressurised within the hoses when a change in pressure is demanded - and the greater the lag imposed. When used in combination with quick-spooling turbochargers, such as ball bearing turbochargers, the result is a more responsive engine.
Unlike front-mounted intercoolers, TMICs do not block any airflow to the radiator and/or oil cooler, allowing better engine cooling."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_mounted_intercooler

YMMV

[worked_xr]

Bow down! BOW DOWN! For wikipedia is the source of all knowledge... BOW DOWN!

[John Brennan]

Click on the link and keep reading, until you get to the "disadvantages" section...

If you want the best of both worlds, do like the Cossie: rotate that intake, keep the piping as short as possible, and have your IC above the rad, allowing both rad and core to have unrestricted, cool, virgin, high-pressure air. The RS500 method is fine, as there is only a bit of overlap betwen the frontal areas of the rad and core.

[Ed Lijewski]

Why bother reading the Disadvantages there, or post them here-- the self-appointed keepers of intercooler orthodoxy here [All bow to the FMIC, One and Only True IC] repeat their cant ad nauseam. Hey: we of other creeds have heard it all, before. What wasn't heard equally, and in respects at all, is what's in what I posted about TMIC Advantages.

The wiser person gathers info of all kinds and sources, then makes his own decision based on what he needs. Oh yeah, and instead of blindly following the crowd for its own sake.

YMMV

[Ed Lijewski]

Bow down! BOW DOWN! For wikipedia is the source of all knowledge... BOW DOWN!

Of course it isn't. It's the MCA Forum.

YMMV

[John Brennan]

Doesn't hearing it equally not also mean hearing what that same very article goes on to say about its disadvantages? Yes, the TMIC has its advantages, but man-- go to your motor after you've driven it awhile-- how long can you hold your hands, in that wonderfully insulated air, a few inches from the hot metal there? At the very least, using, say, a TCIC in our cars would be best with some sort of heat shield between the two. And whatever airflow you're gonna get there, by whatever means except maybe force-fed with a fan, is never going to compare with the air up front.