What's next, sway bars?....

[Black94 5.0]

OK guys, I have recently installed a set of BAT stock height springs, Bilstein shocks/struts, new control arms and new sway bar bushings on my '87 XR...I'm on my way to get some 17" wheels, but I was wondering what should be next....Sway bars, right?....I mean, I still have quite some bad body roll, even with the stiffer springs....

What sway bars do you recommend?...I've seen that BAT has the Cossie 28.5mm replacement and Rapido also has the same size front, are these the exact same bar?...However, I've also seen that Rapido uses a larger rear bar 19mm vs BAT Cossie replacement which is 16mm...

Any experiences or recommendations?...

Thanks,

Rob

[John Brennan]

I've been wondering about this, too. My gut tells me that if you staggered your tire sizes, the big rear bar might balance it out, but that if you stayed with same-size F/R, the smaller bar would be the way to go.

[DPDISXR4Ti]

You could also install a strut tower brace, assumming it clears whatever your setup is. I had plans to do this myself before Carlisle, but it looks like I'll have to jockey too many things around under the hood for that to come together in the next three weeks. Besides, I've still got a few "must do" projects that need to get completed first.

[MerkXRTurbo]

Replace ALL the bushings, if you haven't already.

[Black94 5.0]

I've replace all the front bushings, but none of the rear....

John, I'll be running 205/40-17's all around, that's the plan anyway...So, I'm not sure how that will affect my oversteer...Obviously, if you run a bigger rear bar you get more oversteer, but as fun as oversteer is, I'd much rather be faster....

My Dad never even had a rear bar on his old 2.0 Sierra Ghia, but he did upgrade the front and it cornered great...It was 10 years ago (I was 18)the last time I drove his old Sierra in England, so I don't remember exactly how great...hehe...

[anglin]

OK guys, I have recently installed a set of BAT stock height springs, Bilstein shocks/struts, new control arms and new sway bar bushings on my '87 XR...I'm on my way to get some 17" wheels, but I was wondering what should be next....Sway bars, right?....I mean, I still have quite some bad body roll, even with the stiffer springs....

What sway bars do you recommend?...I've seen that BAT has the Cossie 28.5mm replacement and Rapido also has the same size front, are these the exact same bar?...However, I've also seen that Rapido uses a larger rear bar 19mm vs BAT Cossie replacement which is 16mm...

I've been considering getting both the 16 mm and 19 mm bars to try them out in my racer and see what happens. Russ at Rapido will warn you about his big rear bar (and having good tires and dampers). I would think that with that large of a bar, you will have to be cautious when it comes to driving in the wet.

Body roll is a function of more than just your springs. To clarify a little bit, you can get the impression that you have a lot of body roll if your dampers (shocks/struts) aren't up to controlling the body movements. This is because the dampers control how fast the body changes direction and how fast it moves from one position to another, relative to its suspension. Of course, I don't really know how good the Bilstiens are, but from what I've heard, they may not be up to keeping the suspension really buttoned down. Be cautious in this area.

Tires can also play a substantial part in your impression of body roll. A sticky tire on poor suspension can make the body roll a lot. A crappy tire, with a sponge for a side wall, can make the car feel like the body is rolling a lot, but you are just rolling onto the sidewall of the tire.

Also, the stock ride height springs (does anybody *really* know what stock ride height is...) are probably not much stiffer than stock. Stock springs can hardly be classified as stiff. This means that you can't expect the springs to control much body roll.

I know this next statement doesn't directly apply, but it's something to consider. Eibach's "Sport" lowering springs (sold through BAT as their 25 mm lowering springs) had the *stock* spring rates with a 1" reduced ride height. Blech. (BAT has since switched to another spring maker and I haven't heard of rate informatio on these new [purple] springs.)

From this I gather that Eibach was more into going for "the look" than worrying about handling. They probably didn't want to mess with spring rates which may have upset the stock handling balance. In other words, they didn't want to do the research to make the 25 mm lowering spring that resulted in good handling, they just wanted a spring that resulted in good looks.

The bottom line is that it takes a lot of effort to choose the right spring and test it to be sure it is correct and has the desired results.

Sometime in the near future I'm going to be switching to front coilovers (see also: spring rates of my choice) and mc²racing rear springs (see also: spring rates of my choice). Right now I have BAT's 40 mm lowering springs that they used to sell as a "race" option. When those come off I am going to be checking the actual spring rates of the 40 mm springs to see if they actually have a reasonable rate, or if they are just slightly stiffer than stock.

I'm mentioning this because I am going to suspect that the springs I'm using are the stiffest stock-type XR springs out there. We should be able to assume that all other stock-type replacement springs have a spring rate less than these springs. We'll see how that goes. I'm just hoping that they aren't progressive rate springs.

Here are my conclusions. Your dampers might not be up to the task they have been given, even if they are new. Your springs probably aren't much stiffer than stock springs. Be cautious of the car until you figure things out if you go with the 19 mm rear bar.

[vcallaway]

The Rapido front and the Cossie front are not the same. Not only are they a different size they are shapped different.

We had my car and one with a Cossie bar both up on Geroges lift last month and compared them.

I've done my front bushings, but still have to do the rear. With my car the way it is now I have a lot of oversteer. I had hoped to have the rear done by now but blown rings slowed me down. I expect the oversteer to be more managable once that is done.

Even with things the way they are now my car corners very flat. Russ warned me that there is very little feedback before the car will loose traction. Something to keep in mind.

[Black94 5.0]

I'm pretty familier with how sidewall, shocks and springs work in conjuction with body roll...I have +size tires and I know that is hindering performance like I've mentioned before...

As far as my BAT springs, The sales man at BAT told me that they are exactly the same rates as the lowering springs only one coil taller...That's the main reason I went with them...If I don't like ride height after my 17's I can cut a coil off if needed...The ride quality is a lot stiffer and not to mention that the physical size of the coils are a lot larger than the stock springs....BTW my BAT springs are red...

As far as my Bilstiens, I've had great luck and wouldn't buy another type of shock/strut for a Mustang, however I was sceptical as to what everyone has had luck with with the BAT spings on an XR...You can feel every little crack in the road, but it's still smooth riding...Once I hit a bump it's abosorbed rather than bounced off...There are a few really bad dips and bumps on my way to work... Everyday I thought my car was going to break in half with the stock components, now it's nothing with the new Bilsteins...I suppose a better test would be with a functioning shock to begin with and then compare the Bilstiens...hehe...

I'm pretty happy with my new Bilstien set up...My body roll is 10 times better than it was before and the car is very responsive...The other day I set up a "slalom" on a low traffic city street ...The car was fast and handled well, but it would have been faster without as much body roll....I could tell the tires were folding, but there comes a time were after the tires are folding that the body still continued to roll...That's why I'm interested in the bigger bars....

I'm leaning toward the smaller rear Cossie Bar, since Ford didn't even install a rear bar on the Seirra's other than the XR4I and the Cossie and the XR's only had a 10mm bar at that!...I was just curious to see what everyone on here has experienced....

Thanks, Rob

[xrian]

The Spax Sport Springs in the "stock ride height" spec are very much higher rate than stock springs. "Stock height" is in reference to a Cosie NOT an XR so the car will be a bit lower. I had some Spax Lowering springs on an XR and have since taken them off and am about to toss them in the garbage where they belong. #1 WAY to low! #2 WAY to soft. #1&2 combine to BIG trouble.
I have installed 4 sets of the "Stock Ride Height" sport springs in customer's cars & my own and swear by them. I also use Spax shocks & stutts to match with the springs.
I am running the Cosie front bar and 16mm rear but would really like to try the larger 19mm to help remove some understeer but will wait until I swap in the Cosie front spindles which are said to make a huge difference.
If anyone wants those Spax lowering springs (which are as mushy as a spring in a pen) come & get 'em or they go in the trash heap.
Also as someone mentioned, strutt bars & poly bushed all around.
Fun fun fun.
(now all i need is a running engine so I can go for a spin again

[mangostick]

I've got the 25mm BAT springs and bilstiens on my xr now...(the red springs) I want to see actual data that says they are stock spring rate...my ass tells me they are a bit stiffer even with stock wheels and tire size it handled much better. (15's and 195/60s). I havent gotten to play on a race track but I have gotten my car up to some insane speeds back roads in upstate NY/western MA...lots of twisties and bumps too...the car stuck like it was on velcro despite some understeer. Now that I've got 16s on it and much better tires it has improved over what it was. I only measured a half inch difference between the stock springs (tired ones) and the new "red" springs when I installed them. I want to upgrade my bars..but for a mostly street driven car...good springs, dampers and tires/wheels should do you fine.

[Black94 5.0]

The Rapido front and the Cossie front are not the same. Not only are they a different size they are shapped different.

We had my car and one with a Cossie bar both up on Geroges lift last month and compared them.

.

Cool thanks, I didn't think they were the same, but I wasn't sure....Is there any advantages that one sway bar has over the other?....

[xrpat]

I have the cossie front sway bar with the BAT std ride height springs. I hope these aren't supposed to be stock spring rates because they were described as "heavy duty"by BAT, besides the spring is made of significantly heavier stock than the oems. I also have a lot of body roll through the corners like Black94, even with the Cossie bar so I'm inclined to think my dampeners are the source of the problem (GR2/gasadjust). I also have an 01 ZX3 daily driver with H&Rs and KYB adjustable dampeners and I have found that "softer" dampening settings paired up with the shorter stiffer springs results in an objectionable ride AND handeling. By cranking up the front struts one setting the handeling improved quite a bit especialy the steering response while the ride quality did not seem to suffer at all. If I have learned anything from this particular...sub fiasco is that the dampeners and the springs really do need to complement each other very closely. I know the KYBs on the XR are no good, I feel every pebble and crack on the road but also wallow through the corners like a Ford Country Squire.

[vcallaway]

I'm not sure if the differences in the bars would would matter for most people.

The Cossie bar is shaped so that it is more forward and gives more clearance for the bellhousing. We were looking at the bars trying to figure out if it gave enough clearance to fit an AOD in the car.

The stock and Rapido bars don't have enough clearance for an AOD. The Cossie bar might. The only way to know for sure is to try it.

I have a car I am prepping for a 5.0 build so this is an issue for me.

[John Brennan]

BTW, Rob, any reason for not running 215/40's instead of 205's? There's lots of tires in that size, they should have no trouble fitting, you'll get a bigger footprint, AND a wee bit more sidewall for those potholes and bumps...

[mangostick]

Specification
Sidewall
Radius
Diameter
Circumference
Revolutions
Speedometer
Odometer
Difference

205/50-16
4.0"
12.0"
24.1"
75.6"
838/mi
60MPH
10000mi
N/A

215/40-16
3.4"
11.4"
22.8"
71.5"
886/mi
63MPH
10571mi
-5.4%

check out this link...great for figuring out tire differences...
http://www.powerdog.com/tiresize.cgi